Bantam Tools has just announced their new desktop CNC milling machine. I still don’t know quite what to think about it, but a reader requested a quick run-down, and so I moved this preview/news post to the top of my list.
First, let’s talk very briefly about Bantam Tools, but before that, a one-line summary:
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The new Bantam Tools desktop CNC milling machine is a fully assembled $4000 ($3600 introductory) machine aimed at designers, engineers, and educators.
Bantam Tools?
Bantam Tools already produces a small CNC milling machine, one that specializes in creating PCBs (printed circuit boards) for electronics prototyping. It can do more than that, but over the years it seems to have been tuned and marketed as a PCB prototyping mill.
Before there was Bantam Tools, there was the Other Machine Co, and their Ohermill machine.
Other Machine Co was acquired by Bre Petis, of Makerbot fame, back in mid-2017. Other Machine Co and the Othermill changed names a few months later.
While I had strong interest in the Othermill, that interest waned over time as the makers strengthened their focus on the machine’s PCB prototyping market.
It seems there was a hole in the market, and thus the new Bantam Tools desktop CNC milling machine was born.
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An Aluminum-Cutting Machine
Bantam Tools emphasizes that their new CNC milling machine can cut metal, with repeated mention of it being capable of creating aluminum parts and prototypes.
The new machine features an ER-11 collet, and they recommend a maximum tooling shank size of 1/4″.
ER-11 collets are widely available at industrial suppliers, and in 1/16″ thru 1/4″ sizes. There’s also a 1/32″ collet available from some sources.
In other words, you can use real end mills, up to 1/4″ in size. The machine comes with an ER-11 1/4″ collet, and so you’ll need to source other collets if you want to use other sizes of end mills.
The emphasis on aluminum cutting is an important one. CNC machines are generally only as rigid as the materials used in their construction, and compromises in components, design, and pricing often makes it challenging to squeeze metal-cutting performance out of desktop-sized machines.
Softer materials, such as HDPE or other non-ferrous materials, might also be a breeze for the new machine.
Bantam says that their new CNC supports machining:
- Aluminum
- Brass
- Steel (??)
- Copper
- Wood
- Linoleum
- Engineer Plastics
- Machining Wax
Although steel is referenced in Bantam Tools’ fact sheet, I would be hesitant not to assume this would be with some stringent limitations – as expected. Aluminum machining is very good for a machine this size. If it can handle some operations in steel, that would be a bonus.
The launch video clarifies that the machine is really optimized for machining aluminum.
Who is the Bantam Tools Desktop CNC Machine for?
The target audience is said to be designers, engineers, and educators.
With the new Bantam Tools Desktop CNC Milling Machine, we’re offering product designers, engineers, and educators who prototype the ability to reliably machine aluminum and other materials at an entry level price point. Because this machine is perfectly suited to explore, teach, learn, and prototype, we know it’ll be a welcomed boon to both educators and product designers.
They also say that:
It’s ideal for those looking to bring prototyping in-house or master the fundamentals of CNC machining.
In other words, this is aimed at commercial and academic users, seemingly with greater towards prototypers.
What Makes the Bantam Tools Desktop CNC Milling Machine Special?
The new Bantam Tools CNC machine comes with a metal T-slot table, for heavy duty hold-down capabilities.
The standard tooling package comes with a right angle alignment bracket, (2) toe clamps, collet wrenches, the aforementioned 1/4″ ER-11 collet, and a 1/4″ flat end mill.
It also comes with a 1/4″ probe, for zeroing your X, Y, and X axes.
The Bantam Tools desktop CNC milling machine is also fully enclosed. It’s not the first machine on the market to be fully enclosed, but it seems to be the first machine focused on aluminum cutting.
In my opinion, the T-slot table helps to set the “serious prototyping” tone for the Bantam Tools desktop CNC mill.
However, additional details would be welcome. Is it made from aluminum? Steel?
How will cutting fluids be accommodated? Maybe a cool air blast system could be used? Where? How?
The Bantam Tools desktop CNC milling machine is said to feature swappable build plates, but what does this look like?
Auto probing is a very nice touch, which should help simplify machine set-up every time the workpiece is refreshed and new operations are set to begin. However, the product details reference a 1/4″ probe; what happens when you swap in a smaller collet and want to use a smaller bit? The process of changing out collets to load a 1/4″ probe might encourage users to instead use a manual zeroing method, which is more time-consuming and error-prone.
Bantam Tools Desktop CNC Milling Machine Fixturing
As mentioned, there’s a T-slot table, a right angle bracket, and (2) toe clamps. That’s a good start.
Consumers might be able to get away securing wood to a CNC router or milling machine using double-sided tape, but working with metal requires a beefier physical hold.
What size is the T-slot table? Are other accessories planned, such as a small milling vise?
Nice Touches
I recently set-up a purchased desktop CNC machine, and while enclosed, chips can escape through the bottom. There is a hinged cover, but the hinge is basically flexible plastic with panel trim channels on both ends.
The new Bantam Tools desktop CNC milling machine, on the other hand, features a cover with solid-looking hinges, and what looks to be a very thick base plate.
You can also spot an E-stop (emergency stop) on the front panel.
Bantam Desktop CNC Milling Machine Tech Specs
The working volume is 7″ x 9″ x 3.5″. That might not seem like a lot compared to the huge sheets CNC routers can work with, but this is decent for a benchtop CNC machine that can work with aluminum.
- Working Volume: 7″ x 9″ x 3.5″
- Overall Dimensions: 19.8″ x 20.9″ x 19.4″
- Max Traverse: 250 in/min
- 20mm Shafts
- Spindle Speed: 10,000-28,000 RPM
- Power Requirements: 100-240 V AC 50/60Hz 1.4A
- ER-11 collet
- 1/4″ max recommended end mill shank size
Design Support and Software?
Bantam Tools says that the new desktop CNC milling machine will be supported by their new software, which supports drag-and-drop SVG files for simple 2.5D designs.
2.5D machining generally describes the capability to create through and partial-depth pocket cuts in sheet and plate materials.
The machine will also have Fushion 360 integration and toolpath templates, and designers with limited CAM experience will be bale to use an “Auto-Cam” solution.
Users will also get a free 30-day trial to their premium subscription-only software, which is priced at $199 per year.
Bantam Tools says that paid software subscribers will be able to unlock professional CNC features, such as:
- Monthly software updates
- Curated projects
- Priority support
- Advanced material probing routines
- SVG color encoding
- PCB milling
- Feed rate override
Pricing and Availability
The Bantam Tools Desktop CNC Milling Machine will be priced at $3599 for an introductory period, after which it will increase to $3999.
Intro Price: $3599 thru August 21st, 2020
Price: $3999 after August 21st, 2020
The machine will start shipping in 5-6 weeks, meaning mid-August.
Bantam says that the machine is ready to use right out of the box.
Discussion
I shared what I know about the new machine so far, and I also tried to be fair as I sprinkled in a few thinking points into the post.
I have more to say, but must first provide you with some context.
I have been shopping for a desktop CNC milling machine for a very long time. I bought an inexpensive CNC connection kit for my Taig benchtop mill, but haven’t yet sprung for stepper motors or a controller. There are other small milling machines that you can convert to CNC use, with most requiring an engine hoist or other heavy lifting equipment to move.
I did buy a small desktop CNC mill-like machine, for project use and editorial purposes, and this was after having Bantam Tools’ PCB milling machine on my shortlist for several years. Ultimately, I determined that Bantam Tools’ other CNC machine was too small and limiting for my intended use.
Would I have chosen this machine instead? That question begs to be explored, but in theory, as the $4000 price tag is well above what I’d be willing to pay for a machine of this size.
I use a small benchtop mill for light machining, and have started working with a light desktop CNC mill for light CNC machining, although I have not yet used it on aluminum plate.
Despite not being closely aligned with Bantam Tools’ target users, and ignoring for a moment its pricing, this new machine definitely attracts my personal interest. It strikes me as being perfectly sized and with potentially strong capabilities.
In theory, this machine would perfectly meet my small part needs, which includes a range of tasks and applications, many being professional and some more hobbyist in nature.
Being able to machine aluminum parts in a 7″ x 9″ x 3.5″ working volume would be perfect.
Let’s say I’m building a power tool testing jig and need to create a precision rail bracket of specific dimensions and mounting pattern. To machine the ideal part, I’d need a larger mill or lathe than the hobbyist tools I have now, upgraded electrical to run them, and a huge bench or stands with large footprints to support such equipment. If this machine can handle those parts, it could be indispensable. These days, if there’s something I can’t make, I generally improvise with store-bought solutions, and that tends to drive up the time, cost, and complexity compared to being able to design and fabricate the exact parts I need.
Sometimes it’s little things, such as a sensor bracket. Having to search for a close-enough commercially-available component takes time, and I often have to wait for the part to be delivered.
Being able to fabricate something out of aluminum on the spot would be a great convenience, and I’m sure it would have some non-business-related benefits as well.
Everything I see here so far tells me that this is a “sweet spot” machine. It ticks off a lot of boxes, and quite frankly I find it very compelling.
But, I also have some concerns and hesitations.
First, it’s pricey – $3600 is a lot of money, and $4000 even more.
I watched as the Othermill machine increased in price over the years. Having seen Bantam Tools’ teasers for this new machine on social media, I tried to guess what the price would be, and was exactly right with my prediction of $4000. Technically it’s $3599 right now, and increases to $3999 in a few weeks around when the machines are expected to first ship out.
That’s a lot of money.
The Carbide3D Nomad 883 benchtop milling machine, which I ended up choosing over Bantam Tools’ PCB-emphasized CNC milling machine, is regularly priced at $2499. The Nomad 883 has 8″ of X-axis travel, 8″ of Y-axis travel, and 3″ of Z-axis travel. Its spindle is also equipped with an ER-11 collet size, and it features automatic Z-axis zeroing.
With the Nomad 883, you get Carbide Motion, Carbide Create, and a license to MeshCam.
Carbide 3D has also recently announced a more advanced Pro version of Caride Create, which will be available with a $120 annual subscription or $360 perpetual license. Right now, they’re offering a free year of Carbide Create Pro, as it’s in its Beta testing stage and is not yet available for purchase.
Bantam Tools gives you basic software, with their premium subscription software priced at $199 per year. That makes me a little uneasy.
Carbide 3D’s Carbide Motion CNC controller software is free, and you can choose to use other 2D or 3D modeling software if you’re not happy with Carbide Create or Carbide Create Pro apps.
But with the new Bantam Tools desktop CNC milling machine, it seems that the control software is what you have basic or paid premium versions of. It’s not optional design software we’re talking about, but the Bantam Tools control software for the machine.
Here’s what you have to pay extra for:
- Monthly software updates
- Curated projects
- Priority support
- Advanced material probing routines
- SVG color encoding
- PCB milling
- Feed rate override
Priority support and curated projects I can understand, and even PCB milling. It makes sense that premium unlocks might require a license, although I’d feel better about premium features only being a one-time unlock.
But advance material probing routines? Monthly software updates? Feed rate override?
Nobody ever enjoys having to dig a little deeper into their wallet, but some companies upsell in a more customer-friendly manner than others. Depending on how crucial these features are, you might end up locked into paying for subscription software that controls your hardware.
A lot of brands tie feature licenses or unlocks into hardware, but I don’t think I know of any tool or related product that requires a perpetual subscription to unlock certain hardware controls or processes. This seems unusual and discouraging.
In their launch video, Bantam Tools shows off color-coded SVG support where you can set 2.5D cut-out settings for SVG graphics. Guess what – according to their list of software features, that’s only available to paid subscribers.
Can you use other CNC controller software, such as Mach 3 or Mach 4? Or maybe open source control software?
At this time, there are so many unaddressed questions. Is the machine both PC and Mac compatible? Yes, it comes with a USB cable, but what type of connection?
There’s one reference to the machine being able to work with steel. In what capacity?
With the emphasis on machining aluminum, if and how will Bantam Tools make coolant or cooling possible? Chip collection?
What’s the mechanical resolution along the 3 axes? Accuracy? Repeatability? For a brand whose motto is Professional Reliability and Precision, these details are important.
Bantam Tools needs to feature more case studies and example applications. Right now, there’s not much, and I expected a little more given how much hype they’ve been building for the streaming launch day event. Perhaps the COVID-19 pandemic put a damper on things?
I expect for them to do a better job of showing what the new machine can do, rather than telling, but this is also why the Carbide 3D Nomad machine won me over compared to Bantam Tools’ smaller machine. Carbide 3D did a far better job of convincing me that their machine was capable enough to meet what I was looking for from a benchtop CNC mill.
The T-slot table is a nice touch, and from what I can tell from the few marketing photos, the new Bantam Tools CNC machine is sturdily built, or at least as sturdy as a machine this size could be. I saw a 70 lb machine weight spec, although I couldn’t locate it again during fact-checking. 70 pounds sounds about right, and it looks like there’s bulk where you need strength and weight-savings and lighter materials where you don’t.
What happens if you accidentally damage your T-slot plate, though? Marketing materials show it to be part of the Y-axis carriage.
Marketing materials reference swappable build plates, but don’t go into any detail about what this means.
I can envision Bantam Tools upgrading and enhancing the machine over time, perhaps with its price increasing over time.
Tormach, which makes hobbyist and entry-priced professional CNC machines, has apparently also come out with a benchtop CNC milling machine, one that’s priced at $3500, and that includes a 10.4″ touchscreen controller. Their larger machines start at $5400 for a bare-bones setup.
The aforementioned Carbide 3D Nomad 883 is $2500, plus $120 if you want an aluminum threaded table for more versatile clamping possibilities.
$3600, let alone $4000, is much more than I can justify for personal project needs, and is also more than I could justify for ToolGuyd-related needs. Continuing to ignore that for the sake of discussion, I find myself seeing a lot of appeal in the new Bantam Tools desktop CNC milling machine, but also a lot of hesitation.
Its fixturing versatility needs to be proven.
Its precision and aluminum-milling capabilities need to be proven.
The software needs to be proven, and I feel that I also need to be convinced that the free version is not too limited compared to the subscription version.
A 30-day trial of the premium software seems disappointing, given that it provides access to hardware-related features. If I were to be buying one of these machines, I’d be happier with say a 6-month trial, or maybe a free license for the first year, perhaps along with prompts or indication as to which features I’m using would typically require the paid subscription.
What makes this machine better than well-regarded machines that cost significantly less money? Is it good enough compared to machines the next class-up in size and cost?
Individuals might be better off spending less money on other brands’ machines of a similar nature. Or, they could put less money into a manual milling machine and CNC conversion. It makes sense that the turn-key aspect is more aimed at commercial, industrial, or academic users who need a solution for their needs, rather than something they have to tinker with.
This might very well be a highly polished turn-key desktop CNC machine that can crank out aluminum prototypes with ease. But, there are gaps in the information at this time, with a lot of attention being paid to aspects such as max movement rates, while I crave for more details on setup, workholding, chip-clearing, and how smoothly the overall process can be.
I don’t think this will force an industry shift, just as there weren’t companies lining up to compete with Bantams’s smaller CNC machine. But, it does look to have strong potential as a desktop fabrication machine.
If you are already paying a machine shop or other company for fast turnaround prototyping and services, this might be the tool for you, although I’m not sold on it yet.
Intro Video
Nate B
It’s only a 3-axis machine though, and an awful lot of parts either need more axes, or require really complicated setups and repeated fixturing on a 3-axis machine.
Personally I’m leaning towards a PocketNC. It’s almost twice the price and has a smaller working envelope, but it’s a full 5-axis machine and most importantly, the software doesn’t suck. It’s proper LinuxCNC so you don’t have to do insane things like PAY EXTRA FOR FEED RATE OVERRIDE. What the….. I can’t even find words for how stupid that is. It’s a basic machine control.
Paul
Read the review carefully. First off you are way off on the target market here. CNC is something of a strange land because the fact is that people that use/want it are probably the same ones that have plenty of mechanical design/build experience because what you are using it for is to make parts to design/build something. But this particular machine is targeting the market that wants an off the shelf already built machine that you just buy and plug in. In the 3d printing market we see the same thing. There are lots of kit-style machines that require some assembly and are very inexpensive with essentially free software, and then there machines costing twice as much or more which are already built and polished. So a kit machine might run $300-$1000 while a prebuilt machine runs $1000-$2000. In a CNC format the kit machines run around $1000-2000 while this one is double that….exact same price I’d expect.
You CAN but don’t HAVE to pay for Fusion 360, etc., ec. Fusion 360 is Autodesk’s introductory CAD/CAM software. The idea being to entice you into spending thousands on Revit licensing somewhere down the line. Second their on board servo control software takes some kind of input but based on the description we know that means G-Code because…that’s what almost everyone uses from the moment that Cone came out with it decades ago. So no problems running some other CAD/CAM platform. The advantage for Bantam of advertising Fusion 360 is that they need to package it with SOMETHING and Autodesk makes it so easy to do.
As far as 3 vs. 5 axis, it’s the same as a hot glue gun machine…err, I mean 3D printer. Same design except using a nicer higher end router (“CNC mill”) head. No surprises here. 5 axis machine would mean a substantially beefed up tool head hence the substantially beefed up price. This one is just a heavier duty 3D printer design.
As far as limitations….it’s 2.5D. A lot of objects fit into that format. And I agree 5 axis makes hitting holes on the sides much easier but with this machine you’d have to remove the part, turn it 90 degrees, then fix it back down again and use the registration function to lock in before milling those parts. Is this a problem? Depends on how precise you need the two axes to be aligned. Tooling changes are a problem even in the industrial world. My brother in law was involved in machining high performance gear boxes where they were pushing the measurement technology for flatness and parts registration. Yeah, it’s a problem but it’s always a problem. Can you live with half the price (or less) but have to reposition the part? What about the fact that it doesn’t have a turret so you can’t just load the head with all the bits you need, hit start, and let it run over the weekend? That’s a problem. But not the end of the world. It’s a compromise that saves some money over those 5 or 6 digit industrial CNC machines.
Stuart
I believe that the native software can create 2.5D operations from SVG fillies, but using 3rd party software should allow for 3D designs and G-code. It would be terrible if all this could do is 2.5D machining.
Zach Dunham
Hey Stuart — yes of course the machine can do full 3D machining! The 2.5D auto-cam is built in using our *free* SVG support. That’s just an easy way for people to add engravings or do more complex things like cutouts using nothing more than an illustrator or inkscape file. Obviously, if you’re looking to do more complex things then you’re using Fusion 360 to generate g-code or another CAM package. Hope this helps!
Jim Felt
Paul.
“As far as 3 vs. 5 axis, it’s the same as a hot glue gun machine…err, I mean 3D printer.“
Thank you. Best simple description I’ve ever read of the maker machines.
Kent
>> Fusion 360 is Autodesk’s introductory CAD/CAM software. The idea being to entice you into spending thousands on Revit licensing somewhere down the line.
I think you’re confused about the Autodesk product line.
F360 is CAD/CAM. Revit is BIM or “Building Information Modeling”. It’s not for desktop CAD/CAM.
I consult for a company that designs shops for prototyping companies. We use Revit to model their shops, and they use F360 to run the machines we put in the shops.
F360 is free for hobbyists, and inexpensive for companies. It’s good CAD software, with built in CAM. For high end machines and capabilities (5 axis), you need to subscribe.
They are not trying to sell you Revit. They are trying to sell you an inexpensive F360 license, and gain market share on SolidWorks.
Buddy C
$4,000…?!?!?!?!?! I BUILT a CNC at home with true 2’x4’ material volume. It cost me about $1,200 to build and that’s including CAD/CAM Software. Very cheap software obviously. But my machine is 3 axis as well and also cuts non-ferrous metals. And solidly holds tolerance of about 10-15 thousandths. Not very good for a “machine tool” but considering it’s made of wood completely by hand. I’m happy with it. And what’s more is 15 thousandths is way better margin for error than the average person can do by hand. So if I need a machine to hold tighter tolerance. I can use my home made machine to make parts for a smaller more accurate machine.
Stuart
But can your machine cut aluminum? Can it do 3D contours?
It’s a rule of thumb that a machine is only as rigid enough to cut materials of the same type or softer than what it’s made from. For cutting metal, machine framing, linear guide rails, and carriages need to be much more rigid than for cutting wood or plastic.
You can sometimes cut metal in machines designed for cutting wood, but it looks too often require modification and compromises such as with cutting speeds. Single speed also becomes an issue as woodworking routers often cannot be slowed down enough.
orv
you did not build a cnc milling machine, you made a cnc router. and at 0.010-0.015 accuracy, you would be snapping end mills in metal.
Alex
I appreciate your take on this. Personality I can’t stand bantam and their hype tactics.
For comparison look at a little start up called abdi automation (cast aggregate base, fully supported prismatic linear rails, real spindle, ballscrews, and NEMA 34 motors). All for less money!
I went the route of building my own system from the ground up. It cuts copper and mild steel, but dang it was a lot of work. If I had to do it again I would just buy one.
Stuart
It is absolutely possible to build one’s own system, but as you mentioned it takes a lot of work. I ran through the plans several times over the years, and costs increase greatly if you don’t have metalworking tools or the skill to use them to high precision.
As for hype, there’s nothing wrong with that as long as it’s not shallow.
When comparing machines, it’s important to consider the longevity of the company. Will a new startup be around five years from now? And if not, can spare parts be obtained and repairs made on your own?
fred
As you note, buying from a a startup can be a crap-shoot. If the purchase is some piece of consumable goods – you take a chance. But with a capital tool – you think more than twice.
In the distant past things may have been easier – with the expectation that major manufacturers would be around for many years. I’m not sure when and why companies started spinning around the black hole of leveraged buyouts – but that killed many a long time player. When we bought out our fabrication shop – one of the star attractions was a quite new Houdaille 5-axis grinder. Houdaille was a long and seemingly strong player in the machine tool business – but is now only a faint memory.
Alex
True enough, which is why I’ll be buying from here on out.
One if the reasons I was drawn to the abdi automation mini mill was that it used readily available components. You can but the linear rails and ballscrews all over the place. Also orders of magnitude more rigid than Bantam.
That’s the problem, Bee’s flavor is shallow hype. MakerBot, bantam, and glowforge are all charging way too much for way too little.
TonyT
The abdi definitely has its interesting features (like the aggregate base and 1.5kw spindle motor). If I were in the market for a $4K CNC, I’d seriously consider it.
But I’ll be a little snarky, and note that:
1) They don’t say who makes the ball screw
2) Although Hiwin is definitely better than rails used by typical 3D printers, in my work (industrial automation), it’s considered mid-grade.
3) Why does it use an Arduino Uno instead of something better, like a BeagleBone (with MachineKit or LinuxCNC) or a 32-bit ARM controller?
Alex
Completely fair. I have no doubt they are generic rolled ballscrews, and I agree 100% about Hiwin.
The controller is just a GRBL setup and while nothing fancy, it is definitely plenty enough for moderate step rates.
I’m just saying that for the same price as a Bantam you can get WAY more machine.
Personally I♥️LinuxCNC and went with a FPGA for my step driver on my big gantry router (4′ span and still more rigid than this bantam toy, for nearly the same price)
TonyT
Alex,
I’m actually a bit of a servo snob, but that’s because I use them at work, and have managed to snag a few for myself.
The Kollmorgen AKM servo motors are super nice, but cost more than a low end 3D printer.
Leonard
I’ve seen machines like this. After years of working with smaller manual machines and finding all the difficulties with smaller tooling. I see this type of machine as leading down the same path of always having to buy from them or make fixtures that will work.
I bought a EMCO Compact 5 lathe and mill head almost 40 years ago. The lathe has served me well. I was using the lathe yesterday. The mill lacked for multiple reasons and now the mill head sits in a cabinet. The mill portion was so small. I had to search for tooling and fixtures that would fit. I bought a 4″ small rotary table from Grizzly that was too big to fit on the table. It was very frustrating.
I decided that I need a more substantial machine when I went to CNC.
What I bought was from CNC Masters in California. The model is the Baron.
https://www.cncmasters.com/baron-milling-machine/
It’s a great machine.
I decided to buy local and pick the machine up myself. Shipping was expensive and put other machines out of my reach. I was able to go the factory and look the machines and talk with the owners. I have to tell you that what sold me was how wonderful Omar and Yohan are. The customers service is top notch.
As for the machine, I am able to purchase standard tooling and vises.
I can hunt swap meets and get fixtures and tooling. The ability not to be locked in for tooling can save you money.
It comes with the software to run it so there was no need to purchase additional software.
I also bought VisualCAM to do my CAM work. This wasn’t necessary buy local but I’m glad I did. I was able to take a whole day course on the software.
Their customer service is also top notch.
Stuart
That CNC Masters Baron looks similar to the Precision Matthews PM-932 benchtop mill.
https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-932m/
Conversions of such machines are popular.
There’s a big difference though – a CNC like the one you linked to is more in place in a workshop, while the Bantam Tools machine is more at home in a workshop or office bench.
With milling machine CNC conversions, you are often on your own, learning the ins and outs of the machine and what it can do. They are very versatile, but come with a learning curve.
The new Bantam machine, and others like it, do a better job of holding the users’ hands, at the expense of capacity and capabilities.
This is a different option for users who for various reasons cannot or will not opt for a CNC-converted (or adapted) milling machine.
Leonard
I get what your saying but with CNC Masters they do a lot of hand holding. I called 4 years later after my initial purchase. Like I said in a previous post, it just sat there. Omar remembered me and was willing to help. I’ve actually had problems and emailed him on a Sunday and he responds that day. Sent me information that I needed. He’s even called me back to walk me through a procedure. Not all companies would give that kind of service.
I honestly wouldn’t put a machine like that in an office space. It would be noisy and chip containment would likely become a problem. My mill is in the garage and running right now. I’m in my home studio waiting for it to finish.
Yes, there was a steep learning curve. But I think that’s the case with all these types of machines.
Stuart
That’s good to hear!
I have learned to appreciate the value of turn-key solutions even when DIY paths exist at slightly lower price points.
TonyT
Some comments – based on my research but haven’t used these:
Pocket CNC isn’t cheap ($6K and up) for its small envelope, but has 5 axes, and can cut metal.
For more traditional/capable CNC options, there’s Tormach (starts at $5K, and quickly goes up, with options for tool changers and 4th axis).
From the traditional companies, Haas is probably the cheapest, with an education-oriented desktop mill starting at $8K, and >$20K for full size models. Traditional CNC companies are great at charging for everything.
The Bantam seems oriented towards education and desktop prototyping; Roland DGA has been making prototype-oriented CNC systems for decades, starting at $4K or so for a desktop system that can’t mill metal.
Stuart
I look at Haas every now and then, and drool. Their machines are probably the gold standard, and they’re priced accordingly. Haas is strictly aimed at commercial users where time and effort savings = money saved or money earned.
Looking at their desktop machine, it’s really intended as a “training” machine. “Designed to cut plastics and machinable wax, it is also perfect for hobbyists and benchtop machinists.” You’re paying a lot for the full-size controller. I see its benefits, but hobbyists can get a lot more for the same $8K.
TonyT
I’m pretty sure in the industrial CNC world, Haas is considered low end. High end is Japanese or German, such as Mazak , Mori Seiki, DMG Mori, etc. But my CNC industry knowledge is pretty minimal.
Stuart
Maybe at the $20K to $65K small operation level?
I’m just parroting what I keep coming across in my research. But, information can be skewed. Tormach is the grail setup for individual users in some circles, but despised in others.
Alex
Tormach is… Well it is a CNC machine…. Personally I’d skip them and look at a used HAAS, but Tony is right. They (HAAS) are decent machines but generally considered fairly entry level.
Higher end machines branch out all over depending on needs. Case in point is robodrill/speedio vs a big massive mazak or dmgMori.
Flounderguts
You would be right…Haas is considered “normal,” but durable and popular for production shops because most schools teach on Haas or Fanuc controls. IF you have a space with 3 phase, ex-educational machines that have never cut anything but wax or MDF often show up at auction for peanuts. I saw a VR3 with only 320 hours on it go for $5400 just a few weeks ago. I think I would rather have a 10 year old Haas than a new Tormach!
3 phase industrial machines often sell low, as garages don’t have the power or the space for large enclosures or phase converters (you can’t really use VFDs for every motor on a mill)
Drew M
I’ve extensively run a Tormach and a few others (including HAAS). I’d gladly take a used industrial machine any day instead of a Tormach.
All in, a “real” Tormach is going to run you at least $25k and when you get up that high, you can get MUCH more capable machines used.
IMHO, “desktop cnc” is just a joke where you pay a lot and get very little.
Bleo
The article mentions Tormach has a $3500 benchtop cnc mill but googling I haven’t been able to find anything about this. Can I ask what this machine is?
TonyT
Maybe in the past…cheapest now appears to be the PCNC 440, which starts at >$5000.
Stuart
I just learned about their “xsTECH CNC Router,” which has a $3595 sticker price on their website.
Seems like an “educational” machine.
https://tormach.com/xstech-cnc-router-package-50687.html
They consider it a “CNC router” as opposed to a “mill,” which buries it on their website. I was doing price checking while working on this article when I happened across it.
Stacey Jones
Thanks for the review! It definitely looks interesting, but may be an ongoing money pit, which I can’t personally justify for my own tinkering. After asking you to review this, I realized we have one of the other Bantam machines at work. My colleague uses it mostly to engrave souvenirs for visitors. I’m not sure if it will cut aluminum, but I’ll definitely give it a try whenever we return to the office.
Stuart
This is a news post with commentary / keep in mind it hasn’t shipped yet and I’ve never seen it in person.
It need not be a money pit, aside from tooling and materials, and perhaps different clamping or fixturing accessories as needs and part geometries change. Or maybe an air blast accessory or similar, but these accessories and consumables would be required with most other machines as well.
Nathan
can’t believe there isn’t a mention of Hurco or Mazak machining centers. anyway.
It’s a great idea – price is about right and I can see it will appeal to some people. In my area there are 2 machine shops that will make your product for you if you supply the right files and you go there in person (or well you used to could go there) to make sure of the intended product.
I can see people that want to make parts at home by pressing “print” and starting a 3 hour timer while sitting down for a binge of Stranger Things.
And I think for some it would have alot of use. I bet it can do steel with a slower feed rate (transition rate) and softer steels. I hope they’ve done some testing and give you some base alloys to go with. I could see some hardened AL products being just as difficult to machine cleanly.
Anyway neat idea glad to see there is some consumerism for this sort of thing.
RR
I just put in an order for a CNC Taig VSS 3000AB (with 4th axis option).
Kevin
Interesting, but maybe the Nomad 3 is a better option (and it should be available soon). Carbide3D, the maker of the Nomad desktop CNC, has quite a bit of experience making desktop CNC machines and a very healthy community. The Bantam CNC looks great, but the lead time of 12+ weeks is quite dangerous — quite a lot of things can happen to a small company over 3 months. That is a lot of money with considerable the risk — and even at that, who wants to way 12 weeks?!
Bantam has great support, but so does Carbide3D.
I’ll be ordering a Nomad 3, when it becomes available. Carbide is established and I am not as worried about them going out of business.
Mel
I’ve been on the fence about this machine. Just spent 3 hours watching a teardown of the Bantam CNC and it is SCATHING. I’m 1000% out. I would love to hear what Bantam has to say about the planned obsolescence and how they came up with the machine specs. I feel like they’ve been a bit disingenuous with their specs and slick marketing videos.
Steve
Cant make mine work. Period. I cant make this piece of garbage bore a hole or mill a slot in a simple block. its supposed to be smart enough to operate from a tool library and apply the proper speeds and feed rates but it DOES NOT. Customer service is ineffectual. They can’t send me a usable file. Run as fast as you can from this machine.
Bantam Tools
Hi Steve – Sorry to hear you’ve been running into issues with the machine. It sounds like you’ve been in touch with our support team as well ([email protected]). Are you still in contact with our support team? If so, what is your ticket number? We want to help you get back up and running.
Steve
The support team moves at a snail pace. I’m losing my patience. If I take it out on them, I risk even lousier service and get ghosted for days. Giving you my ticket # just makes things worse for everyone else in que. Your not going to shut me up but moving me up inline. I’ll just sit tight and share my honest Bantam experience with everyone.
Stuart
I don’t think they’re trying to shut you up; I forwarded a link and copy of what you said (but not your contact info) to Bantam Tools’ PR.
I don’t know if you’re a regular ToolGuyd reader, or someone who was just looking for a place to share their experience. Either way, I thought I’d try to help in hopes it improved your situation.
I am assuming that their response was prompted by my email, and that it’s not just a coincidence. But, it could just be a coincidence.
I probably should have mentioned to you what I was doing, but most times when I do something like this there’s some back and forth via email where I bridge connections, rather than public comment communications.
Steve
Update. Update Update. The machine is working. It did take some time but when I got the right customer service rep, things got a lot easier. User error, ( on my first run, i slammed the tool onto the face ) caused the drive belt to loosen, after that it was like tying to chase down gremlins. Now, that being said, If you are not familiar with 2 axis or 3 axis machines, this is not your thing. some pre-knowledge is pretty valuable.
The Fusion 360 software is fairly easy to use and the tutorial videos are a must but, you have to work along with them or you wont retain what you need to be successful.
The Bantam software is pretty good. Estimated milling times seem to be about double. It can be a bit daunting to see that your simple cutout is going to take 4 hours… really takes about 2.
Take it easy with the feed speeds. This is not a powerful machine. you can jam it up pretty easily. Keep your speeds SLOW and your depths shallow.
The tech support turned out to be quite helpful and in the end, I feel, went above and beyond what I had expected. That being said, If you get the wrong guy ( there is at least one there ) just try again. When you get Will, your problems are over. ( Where there is a Will, there’s a way.)
Takeaway. I’ve been running it about 6 hours a day for the last 4 or 5 days. Its doing great. You have to take the time to get to know it. Keep the belt adjusted properly. Dont feed it to fast. if your looking for an inexpensive way to get into milling, This might be your Machine.
Stuart
That’s great to hear – thank you for the update!!