I am pretty pleased with the way my drawered tool cabinet is coming out. But… I think I’ll be using this build in the garage, and start over building something a little different for my office workshop.
So here’s what happened in the past 2 weeks.
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I looked at my Gladiator workbench, and it once again annoyed me that there’s a lot of wasted space under the worktop. I have a ~27″wide by ~18″ deep tool cabinet within a 25″ deep space, and misc. stuff on the other side.
The total space between the workbench legs is 56″.
Someone put it in my head to give Ikea Sektion cabinets and drawers another try, so that’s what I did. I went and picked up everything needed for a 30″ cabinet and 6 drawers, and a 24 cabinet with 6 drawers, both 24″ deep.
I sized the cabinets to fill 55.5″ of it, including cover pieces. It seemed like it would be a great editorial opportunity. How well did kitchen cabinets suit workshop use? How would they compare to my super heavy duty bolt-together solution?
I went back to Ikea a few days later and also picked up wall rails and 4x 30″ wide wall cabinet with the vertical hinges I really liked.
Today or tomorrow I’m heading back to return everything.
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With the Ikea Sektion system, the money goes towards the hardware and visible face components – the drawer fronts and cover pieces.
The drawers are created using Blum or Blum-like components – steel sides and back plus a melamine chipboard bottom.
You lose space at the sides, because the drawer components slope inwards.
A few days ago I decided that I would wall-mount the cabinets, rather than to try to find a way to convert them into a free-standing system.
I tried to better plan everything over the weekend. Where would the Ikea kitchen cabinets go? Where would my 80/20 cabinets go? Should I raise the Ikea cabinets an extra few inches to match the final ~39″ height of my 80/20 cabinet?
Would I still build maybe an 80/20 corner setup so that I didn’t lose a lot of corner space?
And then I slowly gravitated to the idea that I should build a custom space-fulling L-arrangement.
I like how I built the 80/20 cabinet so far, but I would have to come up with a different arrangement for the L frame.
When trying to think of a raising platform for the Ikea cabinets, I came up with a horizontal rectangle with small repositionable feet. The feet would be 3″ or 4″ sections of feet with pricey but useful mounting feet bases, and threaded leveling feet – perhaps just under 3″ so they didn’t stick out much.
So when drawing up initial designs for the L configuration, I decided to go with a rectangle for the base, with horizontal spans being single lengths of 80/20. The depth spans would go completely between, and can be connected via anchors, angle brackets, or joining plates.
For this build, I think I’ll order cut and counterbored pieces from 80/20, unless I can get my machining tools finally unpacked and ready. The counterbores are a challenge without a real mill.
The vertical spans will also have end anchors or brackets. The front sections will be fixed to the front horizontal rail, the rear sections will be fixed to depth rails. This would allow for mounting of Blum drawer slide hardware without needing to come up with a complex or space-wasting way to mount them.
It would also allow for wall-mounting, if desired. But I think the L-shaped design should provide enough anti-slip protection. Maybe wall-mounting will help further vibration-proof everything.
One wall has 84″ of available space, the other 87″.
That 84″ is right near my huge L-shaped corner desk, which I’ll be redesigning soon too I think. Right now, too much stuff gets lost on the 31″ deep and 63″ wide desk that has a 48″ x 24″ corner side.
So I figure a 12″ shelf section would be good, putting the first bank of drawers where my Beta tool cabinet currently resides.
Then, there will be 26″ bank of drawers. A vertical support, then 20.5″ or 22.5″ bank of drawers. The slides will be 21″ long, and the framing 22″ deep. Looking at a 21″ slide in my kitchen, the rear vertical support will work well to directly support the back of the slides, if on the depth rail and nudged forward a hair.
The right side, where there’s overlap with the other L section, will be kept closed. Corner cabinets are very space efficient, so I have something else in mind. Maybe a hinged worktop, so I can store some long bulky stuff in the corner area.
The other side of the L will be 16″ or 19″ deep. I’m leaning towards 19″ deep, which will work better for the 24″ and 2x 15″ wide drawer sections I’m thinking of.
2 25″ deep workbenches in the room was too much, and I had moved one of the benches out. But I think that a 22″ section and 19″ section will work better. With some overhang, that will be 23″ on one end, and 20″ on the other. With a sort of built-in look, maybe the space will work.
The alternative is 23″ to 25″ on one side, and 16-17″ on the other. But 17-18″ with 1″ or 2″ of overhand won’t be much shallower than 19-20″.
My first drawer was prototyped for a 18″ wide x 15″ deep cabinet, and it was too small.
The current design calls for 2x 15″ drawers, which I think will work a lot better with 18″ slides than 15″.
Or I guess I could go with a 30″ drawer, but I think I would benefit more from more compartments.
Or maybe I can use this space for Sortimo T-Boxx storage and a small open shelving stack.
I’ll have a few drawers with 24″+ inner width, and there’s also a shallow but wide 4-drawer office cabinet available for super-wide stuff. And don’t forget about that secret trap door-accessible corner cubby I’m planning on.
For the cabinet I already built, I’ll cut the depth rails down to size and will wall-mount the rear, making a sturdy shallow depth cabinet for the garage. Or… the other side of the room, by a doorway. Or maybe it’ll be a part of my eventually to-be-shrunken corner desk.
The height is expected to be: 4.5″ feet + 1.5″ lower rail + 30″ vertical supports + 1.5″ top rail = 37.5″.
A 1.5″ worktop puts the height at 39″. I have 1-1/8″ butcher block tops from Ikea, which would put the height near 38.6′. The leveling can be extended to get a little more height if needed.
I plan on using this space for precision work. When I considered getting Sortimo WorkMo units for the drawers or T-Boxx, I read that 750mm is a good height for heavy work, 1000mm for precision work. It’s all about elbow position.
750mm is around 30″, too low and unnecessary. 1000mm is about 39.37″. 36″ is typical kitchen countertop height. I’m happy around 38″, but a small bump up is good.
With my current cabinet design, I can’t really change the height. With the new design, I can swap in taller feet if needed. Or shorter. In theory, with 30″ vertical supports and 1.5″ top and bottom rails, I can get a height of 36″ pretty easily. Feet support with fully inserted feet would be another 1.5″ So that would be 34.5″.
Raising the worktop height to 38″ to 39″ still gives me a comfortable elbow angle. Some commercial workbenches bring the worktop height to around 38″.
One thing I’m not set on is whether or not I’ll be taking the casters off my Beta tool cabinet for attachment within the 18″ to 19″ depth section. It’s a great tool cabinet, but might look out of place when all is said and done.
This is why I try to think ahead, otherwise I end up with a car full of Ikea furniture I need to return to the store, or a bucket of spare parts.
The good thing about 80/20 is that everything from the original cabinet build is reusable. It’s still a hell of a sturdy workbench that I might modify to be shallower – to better fit the already-build drawers – or I might keep it as-is.
There are a few questions I’ll think over, but I’ll likely measure once more and then order the framing components I’ll need to get everything going.
Once the skeleton is in place I can better think about how wide to make all of the drawer sections. Maybe I’ll make shelves first, giving me the opportunity to see what will go where and how it’ll look.
Questions to think about:
Black or silver anodization? I’m thinking black! Black looks better, but shows dings and scrapes more too. Silver with smooth sides is 53 cents an inch, black with smooth sides is 61 cents an inch. To save money I could just go with black anodized for the showable surfaces, which will also be mostly hidden by drawer fronts.
1-1/8″ butcher block top, or source some thicker stuff? If I don’t use the two 72″ x 25″ countertops for this project, I’ll use them for something else. I will likely need to buy another top anyways. Or, if the corner area is hinged to make a secret cubby, I can just make that section.
What to do about the corner? Giving access would take away from drawer widths – a LOT, too. A removable or hinged worktop section would help, but knowing me I’ll have that area cluttered up in no time. Maybe I could create a liftable area, where a square of worktop is elevated whenever I need to access something below?
Ooh – that seems like a neat side project!
Or I can leave the corner open for bulky stuff, say a vertical material organizer? Maybe with a pipe coming straight up with storage trays situated around it?
How to use that corner?!
I know it’s hard to talk about project planning like this without visuals, but I’m still working on them. Right now all I have are some sketches in a notebook.
Oh, and drawer depth is looking to be 2.75″ with 3/8″ spacing, 4″ with 3/8″ spacing. and 6.5″ with 3/8″ spacing.
I might think this out a little more. Maybe it’ll be better to go with 2-tier deeper drawers.
I can fit 8x 2.75″ drawers in a 30″ span, or 6x 4″ drawers, or 4x 6.5″ drawers. 1x 6.5″ drawer can sub in for 2x 2.75″ drawers, or 3x 4″ drawers can sub in for 4x 2.75″ drawers or 2x 6.5″ drawers.
A 3/8″ spacing between drawers is a little wasteful, but gives more space for overflow. On the current cabinet, 1/8″ is a bit cramped. I’ll probably have to cut one of the deeper drawers to create a little more space. Otherwise it’s going to requite a whole lot of work to create and perfectly space drawer fronts.
There’s a lot of thinking aloud and indecision here. I tend to be more visual when planning out workspaces, which is why I’m so keen on getting the skeleton up before finalizing the sizing and placement of everything.
It was only once I started blocking things out with cardboard boxes that I realized the upper cabinets I ordered wouldn’t work well here. They’re also really deep – 15″. Maybe I’ll keep them, but as of now I think that 10-12″ shelving will work a lot better than 15″ deep wall cabinets. Maybe I’ll be up to 2 return trips this week – one to return all the bottom stuff, and upon thinking about it more, one for the tops.
That was a whole thought process in itself – if I install those 30″ wide x 15″ tall x 15″ deep cabinets, how much of a space would I want between the top of the worktop? The standard kitchen spacing of 18″ is too small. 20″? 21″?
Those Blum-made vertical hinges are awesome, and could be used for DIY wall cabinets just the same. They’re super pricey, though, at $50 per pair. The cabinet is dirt-cheap, the front is pricey, and the hinges are priciest. I’ll return them, get the L-shaped workbench built and then equipped with drawers, and then turn my attention back to over-workbench space.
Hmm, I’ll probably want to move the electrical outlets from their near-floor placement, to above-worktop placement. I’ll have to check to see whether the circuit is 15A or 20A. That circuit feeds outlets and lights at random other parts of the house.
If it’s a 20A circuit, it needs 12 gauge wire, But if it’s a 15A circuit, can 12 gauge wire be used all the same? I figure that the outlet can be moved, but maybe it would be better to remove the lower outlet, leave the wiring intact, and then just add in 12 gauge wire going to a new outlet placement above the worktop. Agh- too many things to think about!
Sorry for the sidetrack! (But not really.)
How did everything spiral out of control? Here was the thought process:
- Storage space under workbench is under utilized
- Ikea cabinets to go between workbench legs
- Ikea cabinets to be wall mounted
- How to transition between 24″ cabinet and 18″ DIY cabinet?
- How to build the corner piece?
- How to build a platform for the Ikea cabinets to be raised to the DIY cabinet height?
- If I’m building a platform to raise the Ikea cabinets, I might as well build a platform to wrap the corner
- Ikea drawers to be used in the new cabinet (Ikea Sektion Maximera are said to be built by Blum)
- Blum Tandembox drawers?
- Blum Tandem with Blumotion slides (used in the cabinet build) are more flexible and have higher weight capacity
- Let’s build a new L-shaped tool drawer workbench, expanding the platform idea into a somewhat monolithic almost built-in frame!
- Spends some time with pen and paper to see how it could work
- Let’s post about it!
John
Photos or drawings (with dimensions) of the space would be a great help in these types of posts to help those of us that haven’t seen the space visualize it and options you may not be thinking of. Maybe give a set of parameters and open a competition to design the new Toolguyd Workspace.
Stuart
It’s similar to this example:
https://toolguyd.com/how-would-you-turn-a-spare-bedroom-into-a-workspace/
I also went with 2 floor standing workbenches, but it was too much for the space.
Jim Felt
Run 12 gage wire for everything. It’s future proof. You’ll never regret it. I even run 3 wire for split circuit use etc. Like WireMold etc. Never know the future. Just make sure your (visible) 120vac receptacles are matched to the breakers. And maybe a 240acv receptacle(s?) and matching wire run for future use?
The rest is great fun to read but not to think about on my way to work…
fred
Running bigger conduit than you need with a fishing rope inside is another idea. Then if your 12ga is not enough for you new welder you have the space in the “pipe” to pull 10 or 8.
The prior owner of my house had a big Hobart Stick welder in the corner – so my garage is all wired up and set for quick charging an EV if the next owner (not me) decides that’s their thing
Stuart
When the workshop – the main workshop – electrical was being done, going from 2 outlets to a subpanel with lots more outlets, the walls were wired with 12 gauge, lighting and ceiling outlets with 14 gauge. Then the discussion turned towards 12 gauge and quad boxes, and so now the workshop has more outlets than most houses.
There’s a 220V outlet in the corner. Just in case. And If I ever install a large cabinet saw, I suppose it can be easily brought up to the ceiling for middle of the room placement.
But in the workshop mentioned here, that’s more of a small precision work, electronics projects, and assembly and office workspace. I’m waiting for the electrician to get back to me about adding 2 dedicated lines from the main workshop subpanel. They said that would be easier than going from the main panel.
Koko the Talking Ape
Why will you counterbore and not countersink? I imagine countersinking could be done with hand tools, though maybe I am missing something.
Stuart
There is a certain 80/20 end fastener that requires counterboring.
https://8020.net/catalog/category/view/s/shop/id/837/?cat=5
Most of my 80/20 builds worked well with joining plates and angle brackets, which doesn’t require machining the ends of extrusions.
For this build, I think anchors might be neater, quicker, and simpler. I plan on designing it such that loads are more vertical and direct on the feet, and the loading on the anchor fasteners will be lower.
Peter Fox
The FIRST FRC team that I am a mentor on uses a lot of the 10 series 80/20 .
to solve the problem of needing a mill to do the counter boring we mad a simple jig with a pair of hardened steel drill bushing that sleeve together allowing both precise drilling of the clearance hole and then counter boring with an appropriate end mill using nothing more than a M12 cordless drill.
You can see pictures here
https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1612634&postcount=9
If you plan on using a lot of 80/20 it is worth the time to make up a smiler jig.
Stuart
I’ve used those end fasteners before and also built my own jig. I misplaced it when I needed it urgently, so I also have 80/20 jigs.
I hadn’t considered a jig for counterboring for anchors, but will give it some thought. Maybe it’s something I’ll do for future builds.
For this one, there are already too many side tasks, and I really need the space up and organized.
Peter Fox
Forgot to mention the style of fastener we typically use
https://8020.net/shop/3681.html
JMG
You could always build a drawer box that could be removed from the frame to gain access to the space in the corner for items you purposely want hidden (i.e. safe), or for a ventilated compressor space, or electrical equipment, that only needs access for maintenance. Also I think that any nicks in the black could be touched up with a magic marker of some type of paint stick to soften any color differences from more than two feet away.
Stuart
Blum Tandem drawers remove extremely quickly – faster than with any other drawer slides I’ve ever used.
Stuart
Another big question:
Hardwood drawer sides or baltic birch plywood (again)?
Hardwood sides would have to be glued up and planed from 13/16″ stock to 5/8″ or 1/2″ for smaller drawers.
I haven’t done price comparisons yet, but baltic birch is pricey to ship. There are better price breaks on soft maple.
Hardwood would also allow for different kinds of joinery.
But… so many glue ups might be a challenge, especially if there’s any warping.
5/8 vs 1/2 isn’t a big deal, in terms of width loss considerations.
JMG
Do you have any local cabinet shops near you that might have left over sections of Baltic Birch, or access to one of the industrial supply wholesalers?
In the past, I have used both poplar and soft maple for drawer sides. The maple takes a better finish, but the poplar was generally less expensive and easier to work.
fred
Yeah – while Poplar is technically a hardwood because of its cell structure – it is softer than some pine species. For years – in many regions of the country where it was in good supply, it was often the first choice for secondary wood (sides, backs and even drawer bottoms). My concern about cabinetry and casework for a garage would be wood movement. Garages can be subject to greater swings in temperature and possibly humidity levels too compared to interior spaces. Plywood and other man-made products are typically more dimensionally stable.
ToolRank Chris
Hey Stu, I just came across your cabinet build. Why only Baltic Birch Ply or Hardwood for the drawers? Have you considered Maple plywood? It is a commonly used material for drawers because it is strong and looks great with a clear coat.
I personally went with Baltic Birch (3/4″) for the drawers in my shop, but that was only because I had leftover material from my cabinet builds. As a finish carpenter, I am lucky to have good relations with the cabinet/millwork shops I install for. The cabinet shop was able to get me Baltic Birch ply at wholesale prices; still, the stuff was expensive.
Good luck with the rest of your builds.
Stuart
I’ve not had good luck sourcing good plywood locally. Most places only have rough construction grade, nothing suitable for furniture.
I’m open to trying new things.
ApplyPly is also on my list of things to try, but in the last post a comment mentioned that BBis generally better quality.
The closest place that carries BB didn’t have 1/4″ or 1/2″ in stock the last few times I checked, only 3/4″.
ToolRank Chris
Have you tried places that do custom moldings and millwork? A couple of the ones in my area also sell cabinet grade sheet goods and cabinet supplies. If they don’t sell what you are looking for they might be able to order it or refer you to someone.
Also, cabinet grade maple ply should be easier to find than BB. BB is one of the strongest plywoods, but I would be surprised if you could load the drawers up with enough weight to need the extra strength that it provides over maple ply.
Visbert
Is there a reason you’re using 15 series rather than 10 series? I use a lot of 80/20 and I’ve found that a 2020 is more than twice as strong as a 1515 at about the same weight. The fasteners are smaller and cheaper and it’s much easier to counterbore. Having 2 channels on each face makes for stronger connections that aren’t as prone to twisting.
Anchor fasteners are much better than brackets and don’t take up any extra space. The counterbores are tough to do if you don’t have a mill, but it’s easy to have them do it if you know where they need to be. End fasteners are doable with a hand drill and one of their access hole drill jigs. They’re similar in strength to the anchor fasteners, but the drawback is that they can only be accessed through a hole. Anchors allow a bar to be attached anywhere. Remember to order the black anchors if you get black extrusion.
Stuart
I’ve used 10-series in the past, and the past cabinet build was one of my first experiences with 15-series.
In the image above, only the top front rail could potentially rotate, all the others are locked in on multiple axes.
I like the look of the 1515 smooth, and used 1530 for the legs/uprights of the pictured cabinet.
I’ve used 1020 for workbench legs before, and it wasn’t very beefy. I don’t think I considered 2020 before going for 15-series.
I’m not convinced I would have went with 2020 even if it was on the table
2020 has a footprint of 4 square inches, but only 1.228 Sq. In. of surface area. 1515 has a footprint of 2.25 square inches, with 1.138 Sq. In of surface area.
So yes, 2020 has more metal, but 1515 seems more solid. There’s more strength in a smaller area, but your mention of multiple channels on reach face making it easier for twist resistance isn’t lost on me.
Go up to 1530 and you have a footprint of 4.5 square inches with 2.036 Sq. In. of surface area.
1010 has a footprint of 1″, surface area of 0.435 Sq. In.
Going up to 1515 gives you much more strength. When you need even more, 1530 has a LOT more metal.
I don’t recall why I first decided to go 15-series for either of these builds, but I do remember looking over the cross section numbers at least a couple of times.
Visbert
A 2020 actually only has a tiny bit more metal, since it weighs 0.118 lb/in vs. 0.112 lb/in for 1515. The moment of inertia for 2020 is 0.557 vs. 0.255 for 1515, so it’s about twice as resistant to bending.
The 2020 is so much stronger because it has a closed box at the center. The 1515 is just an X of relatively thin aluminum. Even a 1020 is stronger than a 1515 along the 2″ direction. A 2040 is also much stronger than a 1530 at about the same weight.
The surface area alone doesn’t determine strength. The shape is also very important. Imagine a cross section that’s 10″x1/8″. It would have more surface area than a 1515, but would be much more flexible in the 1/8″ direction. 2020 gives the most bang for your buck.
Stuart
I wasn’t convinced of this, thinking about how geometry plays into bend resistance.
Looking at the 80/20 calculator, you’re entirely right about the bend resistance, but I’m thinking it also has to do with the geometry.
https://8020.net/deflection-calculator
2020 is a box, 1515 is a centered section with 4 arms.
For 500 pounds evenly distributed on a 50 length profile fixed at both ends, the deflection at the center would be:
1010: 0.3625″
1515: 0.0607″
1020: 0.0522″
2020: 0.0293″
Going with 1020 and 2020 might have been good for bend resistance, but 2020 would have complicated the build a little, and 1020 doesn’t always interconnect conveniently with 1010. Maybe 1020 and 2020?
For an unrealistic 500 pounds at the center of the 50″ profile, deflection would be around 1/8″ for the 1515 profile.
The load in the first cabinet mainly transfers to the uprights.
The same is even more true for the new build that I’m planning. With this next build, the load will be attached to uprights via drawer slides, with dynamic off-centered loads only being present when each drawer is extended.
Below the vertical uprights, there will be horizontal spans which will be supported underneath or nearly underneath, by feet.
I’ll work out 2 designs, one using 1010, 1020, and 2020 components, and another with 1515.
And I’ll give more thought to profile shape. Thank you for the insight!
(It’s really 1515-S, but written as 1515 for neatness.)
1515 Cross Section: 1.1458 Sq. In.,
3030 Cross Section: 2.7844 Sq. In.
1515 Weight: 1.138 Lbs./foot
3030 Weight: 3.2411 Lbs./foot
(There’s an error for 1515-S in the calculator, saying the weight is 0.1334 lbs/foot.)
1515 Moment: 0.2631 In.^4
3030 Moment: 2.6959 In.^4
Deflection with evenly distributed 500 pound of weight on 50″ profile fixed on both ends:
1515: 0.0607 In.
3030: 0.0061 In.
Hmm. 10 times higher moment of inertia, 10 times lower bend resistance.
OH, I see thing clearer now.
80/20 is not supplying the moment of inertia, they’re supplying the second moment of inertia.
I had to look this up, it’s been a while since I took classical mechanics.
So the number they give has the mass distribution baked in, which makes a lot more sense than if they supplied just the moment of inertia.
I’ll take your advisement into consideration when planning the next build.
I still think that 1515 is a good way to go, but will run the numbers just to be sure.
Visbert
It looks like you’ve got it now. It’s best to pick one series and stick with it. That way you don’t need to keep track of both kinds of fasteners. I wouldn’t use a 1010 for anything load bearing. For your use, either series would be strong enough.
Another wrinkle when it comes to stability of a structure is the type of connection. It’s likely that joints will flex slightly when using plates and brackets. It’s almost impossible to get the joint completely tight and that slight gap can allow the flex. Using anchor fasteners and end fasteners pull the bars tightly against one another and this greatly reduces the wobbliness of a structure.
Most people default to 15 series and brackets because it’s easy and seems strong, but I can tell you that 10 series and anchors works much better if properly designed. I’ve built room sized structures this way and it’s cheaper and stronger.
Stuart
My hesitation towards anchors is that it doesn’t allow for a lot of rejiggering, at least not without redrilling. That’s why I went with brackets in the past, which do tend to complicate assembly at times. Pulling one extrusion tight can tend to create a gap on another side, requiring some clamping and loosening/tightening re-dos.
There are 2 things 80/20 couldn’t clear up. Maybe you have an idea?
Their anchors are recommended for non-column-loading applications. I took this to mean that one shouldn’t attach a horizontal section to a column and then load it down. All 80/20 said was that anchors should be okay in a workbench build.
So when shouldn’t one use anchors?
And they have yet to answer why 15-series flange head button cap screws don’t work with angled brackets. The L-shaped brackets have fillets/rounded inner corners that interfere with the flange, resulting in non-flush and improperly seated fasteners.
But those are the fasteners they sell and recommend.
Rather than give an explanation, and because returning the fasteners or brackets would be a hassle, they sent me replacement screws. The gesture was appreciated, but they sent me 10-32 screws to replace 5/16-18 screws I already replaced.
I can’t imagine I’m the only one using 80/20’s fasteners on their L-brackets. So a lot of builds out there have crooked and partially seated fasteners.
ANYWAYS, I definitely see what you mean now. It will certainly influence my 80/20 build planning in the future, and I won’t be so quick to assume 15-series is stronger than 10 series.
Going with 2020, 1010, and 1020 extrusions might indeed be better than 15-series. They also come in smooth variation, which I like.
And I do have equal amounts of 10-series and 15-series hardware around here.
I’ve got some thinking to do.
How do you think 20/20 smooth might work along the floor, maybe with a 2″ plastic strip attached for non-marring? Although, that would mean no leveling capabilities. Or I could attach disks or shims, rather than having to go with feet.
Yup, definitely some thinking to do. I might order a sample extrusion or two to help with visualizations.
Thank you again!
Visbert
Anchor fasteners are the ones that fit into counterbores at the end of a bar. A bar with anchors can be placed anywhere along the mating bar. End fasteners are the ones that attached to the tapped end of a bar and require an access hole in the mating bar. They’re both about the same strength. I always use double anchors unless I have a cosmetic situation where I wouldn’t want the fasteners to show or if bars are too close together to get a wrench in to tighten them.
I can’t think of a reason not to use anchors if you’re willing to have 80/20 do the counterbores for you. I have a VMC and can do it myself, but most people probably can’t. I use them in the column loaded configuration all the time. The chart on page 61 of the current catalog 21 shows that anchors are stronger than the other connector types in almost every situation.
I don’t know why they recommend the flanged screws for brackets. They work well for plates, but can’t sit flat in the corner as you describe. For 10 series, the button head screws work fine. I don’t have any 15 series brackets, so it don’t know how they would work.
If your structure is relatively small, it should sit reasonably well on the floor. I always use leveling feet because my structures are larger and floors are rarely flat enough for them to sit nicely on the floor without wobbling. It’s straightforward to put one of the various leveling foot plates on the bottom. If you need something lower profile than ones 80/20 provides, McMaster-Carr has many different kinds of feet.
Rock Hound
I always thought that a corner Lazy Susan built to hold long and narrow tools (ex: bar clamps) would be an efficient use of space and allow full access to a corner. Look at gun safes/cabinets to get an idea of what I mean.
fred
We built, or installed all sorts of kitchen corner cabinets. Some were not so novel under sink spaces with stacked lazy-susan baskets for cleaning supplies. One more innovative one – used a lift to bring up a platform with a commercial Hobart mixer – raising its covering butcher block top with it. We worked with a specialist lift company on this – and I think it became something like a $10,000 corner cabinet. After the job was completed , I’m not sure how much practical use it got – and while that lift was more than capable of carrying the load of the big mixer – I was always concerned about how things might rattle-apart if some heavy bread dough got caught in its dough hooks. I don’t recall that we ever had a call back – but on kitchens that cost more than many houses I sometimes suspect that they may be more for show than for use.
Using this sort of idea for a shop you might build a sturdy corner cabinet with an open top and cleats all around to support structurally-sound base for something like a sanding station on one side and a grinder on the other (top and bottom) flipping them over when you needed one or the other, No fancy electro-hydraulic lift – just brute force to get the job done.
mechanicmatt
Why 80/20, it is probably the most expensive option to use for an outer frame. I am a factory engineer and used to use this stuff all the time but have finally admitted to myself that is it way less costly than what they even use as there example of, welded steel. If you know the dimensions and outer shape then you can make a local fabricator or machine shop get it done for you, especially if you are at the point of wanting 80/20 to do the countersink work.
The thing about 80/20 is that over the years you are going to constantly go back and re-tighten that frame work over and over. We used to use this stuff for everything from work benches and flow racks. It’s good stuff, but it has some flaws, mostly the re-tightening, but also it’s heavy stuff and tends to get dirty inside the rails over time. What is nice is the ability to utilize the rails in multiple configurations and bolt on accessories. Great for squaring jigs and hold downs too.
That said if you really like the look of the stuff and like that you can bolt things onto it, there is an alternative company, also made in the USA, called Alufab (www.alufabinc.com) that can build anything that 80/20 builds at much a lesser price. Or at least did back in the day.
Stuart
I like the customization ability. I can bolt almost anything to almost anywhere. With certain projects my designs and utilization changes over time. With this cabinet build, my designs have changed sort of mid-project. I can reuse nearly every piece. Even if I could weld, a welded frame would not be as quick or easy to modify.
ktash
Here’s something that came to mind, heavy duty workbench casters from Rockler with quick release brackets. I got these after trying a somewhat expensive base where the wheels stuck out too much. I haven’t used them yet, but just got the caster set (scroll down and you will see it) and 3 sets of brackets. I thought of this because you mentioned not wanting the wheels/feet sticking out too much. Not sure how well this would work in your application, but wanted to put it out there. On sale right now, too.
http://www.rockler.com/rockler-quick-release-workbench-caster-plates-4-pack
ktash
Maybe slightly off-topic, but I use sketchup to make these kinds of plans. Then, I can move things around using sketchup and use it to “think on paper” about the project I’m designing. Even when I use an existing design, say from a youtube video, I always seem to change it somewhat. It helps my thinking process a lot and allows me to see if there might be problems.
I learned to use it in a weekend using the video from Fine Woodworking. It was super easy. I’d tried other ways/tutorials before that and it just seemed to be way too time-intensive to be worth it. So I bought the video and then followed it step-by-step. I then designed a cabinet. It was great! It has allowed me to do many things easily that I never expected to do. I’m not great at it, but don’t have to be, I’m good enough for what I want to do.
Here’s the link:
http://www.finewoodworking.com/2012/03/23/announcing-fine-woodworkings-google-sketchup-guide-for-woodworkers-the-basics
I know you aren’t a woodworker, but it might still be worth it for you for your shop design and if you have other diy projects coming up. Also, it would allow you to post designs you are thinking about.
Stuart
I’ve used Sketchup casually for years now. But I’ve never liked using it for 80/20 builds.
It helped with my Craftsman competition birdhouse build: https://toolguyd.com/5-tips-i-learned-or-was-reminded-of-when-building-a-birdhouse/
Workbench model: https://toolguyd.com/google-sketchup-free-3d-modeling/
I have also used Inventor, but never got past the basics.
There are a couple of other free or low cost 3D modeling programs, but Sketchup remains one of my first go-tos when I need to visualize a design. I do have to relearn the basics after long stretches of disuse, but it’s not as bad as with the more sophisticated modeling programs.
I had to uninstall Inventor when I upgraded to Windows 10, due to a conflict with the file manager.
ktash
Yes, I went through a long period of disuse and had to relearn. Suprisingly it came back faster than I’d expected.
Marty
I’m having similar difficulties with my new work van…
I have a lot of tools and I’m trying to organize everything that I need on a daily basis so that it’s easily accessible. I built a few cabinets for the back and mounted a smaller Husky mechanic’s box inside. I made a Toughsystem specific cabinet, but the cabinet ended up taking a lot more space than I think it’s worth. I also built a Festool specific cabinet and I’m super happy with how it turned out.
Now I’m debating selling my Toughsystem boxes and going with all Systainers. It feels like I’m going around in circles with decisions on how to best use the space.
fred
@ Marty
We used a upfitter for our fleet. While you may wish to do it yourself – perhaps a visit (online or in person) to an upfitter showroom might give some ideas.
http://www.dejana.com/van-interiors/sortimo-van-storage/
John Blair
I am a huge fan of Ikea drawers as they are built by Blum but down spec’ed. I don’t believe they are actually different. But when using them here are my thoughts:
1) Height: The base cabinets are hung by the equivalent of a metal french cleat. The lets actually don’t do much other than level. So you can do something as simple as build a 2×4 leg and screw it in or shim it off the wall (with a lip for the bottom to rest on) and have it float.
2) Corners suck. If you are going with Ikea stuff, the corner cabinet (http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50265502/?query=502.655.02) and pull out (http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40265649/?query=402.656.49) give you a functional corner for around $200.
3) Transition, I would just move the 18 inch cabinet out to match the same depth as the kitchen stuff the wasted space behind may be worth it, or you can actually cut the counter material back to have an inset area in your bench.
4) The only Ikea solid countertop is this one: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/80274963/ I like the looks of the walnut one but its 1/8th inch hardwood over particle.
5) I am a huge fan of adding Kaisen foam to everything, so the curved sides of the Ikea/Blum isn’t noticeable to me. But don’t put many “Tall Drawers” in, as they have open sides.
6) Don’t buy Ikea drawer fronts, making your own is drop dead simple.
7) If you decide to build more drawers, you can always get sheets of pre finished plywood. I’ve not used the people, but may be interesting to look at: http://www.fessendenhall.com/prefinished-plywood.asp and http://www.kuikenbrothers.com/products/residential/lumber/plywood-panels/
8) You have the domino so drawers are pretty easy, if you want to get fancy, here is a skill builder for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NutwD7B6tmE
Stuart
I had thought long and hard about that Ikea cabinet, but it’d still lead to a lot of space and constrained access if I emulate it. That pull-out is nice, but I’m sure I’d go over the 33 lb limit.
I’m also considering other plywood products for the bottom. Baltic Birch is a lot nicer in 1/2″ than 1/4″. The 1/4″ I have has way more patches than I’d consider acceptable, and more than I can really cut around.
If I go with the ApplyPly pre-finished sides, it’ll be a good opportunity to consider whether prefinished plywood for the bottoms is a good idea too.
But with prefinished, I don’t know what the finish is, or the process. My BB source only has pre-finished BB in 1/2. I’ll shop around if I have the chance.
JMG
I worked in a shop that used prefinished ply exclusively for their interiors. It lowered finish costs for them as they treated it like a sanding sealer in most cases, and on small margin bids could be used as is. You can also purchase prefinished wood tape for the edges to go along with the ply.
John Blair
Some other corner options:
1) Mount the counter to the wall and leave a rectangular cavity. Build a cart on casters that you can put into that cavity. That would eliminate the dead space. You could even built the cart out of 8020.
2) Put your air compressor in the corner cavity. Cut the top so you can reach it if you need to. Also works with a computer if you run a CNC machine on top of it.
3) Build the entire wall section on 8020 and casters and slide the whole wall out to get a the item in the corner.
4) Hide your end of the world supplies there. If the zombie apocalypse happens, you wont mind dismantling your workbench to get to them. Sure this seems unlikely now, but, you never know.
Jim P.
I’d avoid the Ikea cabinets and custom build everything. Building a box is fairly simple and allows using 3/4 plywood, not MDF, for strength. I’ve used true 1x poplar for face framing and even drawer fronts. In my work trailer I polyurethaned everything. Was fairly simple and cost effective. In my garage, I custom made a laminate counter and a true 1x nosing and routed an ogee relief around it. The counter is made of 3/4 sanded plywood over 2×4 framing. No issues with weight, plus can bolt through.
I’d keep it simple. Glue, nails, screws, and clamps.
Ray S.
It was about 9 years ago when I redid our kitchen using Ikea components (I think it was Akurum that was recently replaced with Sektion). All of the hardware was made by Blum then. i was able to get complementary parts from the Blum line that Ikea didn’t sell from my local Richilieu outlet. You could even get the plastic covers for the adjustment mechanism so that they said Blum instead of Ikea for those too embarrassed to admit they had an Ikea kitchen. At the time, the drawer kit from Ikea cost about 60% of the price of just the rails from the next cheapest supplier I could find.
I was and remain quite happy with the Ikea components I purchased and installed. What I got was the boxes and drawer kits. I had custom drawer fronts and cabinet doors made to my spec, which I drilled to fit the Ikea/Blum System. I added custom profile crown and light molding and installed everything myself. It looks like a kitchen built by a furniture maker because the gaps between doors/drawer fronts is 3/32 everywhere.
Not everything from Ikea is terrible nor great. Choose wisely.
note to someone living close to Stuart, the Ikea near him is about to have a sweet deal on two 6 drawer cabinets…
Stuart
Everything I returned was unopened, so it’ll go back on the shelf. I’ve seen return stickers on on-the-shelf stuff too. It only goes to the as-is area if opened or partially assembled.
The Bjorket drawer fronts were nice, but very pricey. The 5″ slabs are solid wood – Birch. I’ll plan on maple, flame birch, or something similar for my current and upcoming builds.
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/90267617/
I was heavily debating whether to go with Ikea drawers or Blum Tandembox drawers for the current and upcoming builds, but you don’t have much flexibility in drawer height.
Tandembox weight capacity is slightly higher than Ikea’s Maximera, but that could be because it doesn’t take the bottom and back weight into account?
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/90265656/
I decided against Tandembox because it requires 5/8″ components which I can’t find easily. It’s designed for chipboard/particleboard. And you need a back and front, and false front if there’s a face frame or the otherwise desire for wider/larger front.
I used 1/4″ ply in my 24″ drawers, and might continue to use it for the upcoming build. Or maybe 1/2″ ply for larger drawers. Or I can use 1/4″ with a strip or two of 1/2″ on the underside from front to back for stabilization.
Our new kitchen cabinets have 1/4″ ply panels with the larger drawers having extra undermount support on the left and right of the front-to-back middle. That seems like a better idea to me than using 1/2″ plywood as the drawer bottom, as it doesn’t take away from usable drawer depth.
3/4″ plywood can be used in place of 5/8″, with rabbeted sides and back to make it fit. But if I have to machine a drawer bottom and back, more so than just cutting to size, I should just use Tandem slides and build the whole drawer.
Jim P.
I’d build the drawers so they are heavy duty and size can be custom. My tool trailer drawers were all site built out of 3/4 sanded plywood and true 1x poplar for the sides. The final face was poplar as well. I used slides that locked in when shut.
Some of those drawers have close to 100lbs in them and I haven’t had any issues out of them