I hope you’re all well! We’re now two months into the pandemic, or at least nearly two months into our state’s lock-down “shelter at home” orders.
I went shopping yesterday, and things seem a little laxer now than a month ago. There was no line wrapped around the supermarket, and Home Depot’s parking lot was packed. There seemed to be light foot traffic inside the Home Depot, although there didn’t seem to be anyone at the door counting people entering, and there was a long line of customers looking to make returns.
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We’re still practicing caution, only venturing out to a store when needed to – about once every two weeks.
Stores now have plastic guards in place to shield cashiers, and there are also other protections and processes in place, and they’re much more streamlined than a month ago when improvisations started.
Our town still has newly reported cases, and it’s unclear why.
Restaurants are still closed.
We’re seeing delays in online orders, especially via USPS.
It appears that a lot of people still don’t understand proper protective practices. What’s the point of someone wearing gloves in a supermarket if that person opens their bag and touches their phone? Face masks lose effectiveness if they’re pulled down below the nose. N95 masks with exhalation vents defeat the purpose of cloth mask mandates and recommendations, where the idea is that everyone is safer if bodily fluids are contained.
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One media personality chastised their colleagues, saying that everything is hyped up and that only sick people need to wear masks, citing outdated and replaced guidelines from early March.
The thing about COVID-19 is that a lot of people are asymptomatic, meaning one can have it and not know it, and unknowingly infect others.
There are vulnerable populations, but there have also been a lot of critical cases and deaths involving younger persons and of typically good health.
High-filtration masks are still in short supply, meaning that many individuals cannot protect themselves when venturing out into public. The idea behind cloth mask guidelines is that if everyone contains their fluid droplets, they protect others. And if everyone protects others by donning a cloth mask, the need to protect oneself with high-filtration masks is reduced or perhaps even eliminated, and those masks can go to heath care workers and others at high risk of transmission and infection.
Everyone wearing a mask in a supermarket, where social distancing is often compromised, makes me feel less inclined to venture out in say a P100 paint respirator.
It seems logical to me. I protect you, you protect me, and if there is someone is infected with COVID-19 but asymptomatic, these steps serve to reduce the spread and protect others.
Let’s say that 1 out of 10 people out at a store have COVID-19. 9 people are wearing masks without really having to, but it ensures that the 1 infected person has a reduced chance of transmitting the virus to others unwittingly. The thing is, all 10 of those people might believe themselves to be completely healthy and virus-free.
There are news reports that the virus was widespread in different US states prior to the March pandemic declarations and official tallies. Unfortunately, there’s no way to tell until antibody testing is widely available.
After two months, it seems that a lot of people either don’t understand what social distancing means, or they simply don’t care. But, one often encounters selfish and discourteous people when grocery shopping, so why should now be any different.
I went to a doctor’s appointment last week (follow-up to minor in-office surgical procedure on my foot if you must know). Earlier in the month, I was asked a couple of questions before I was permitted to enter the building. This time, there were questions and a non-contact temperature measurement. This is probably going to be the norm for a while.
For the first time in at least 6 weeks, Amazon has added their “Today’s Deals” link back onto their homepage. What does this mean?
A lot of businesses are still open, but with social distancing in place. Still, there are so very many closures, and a lot of people out of work.
For most of these businesses, the closures are considered to be temporary, or short-term. That doesn’t make things any better for people in those circumstances, but there’s a chance for recovery.
However, we’ve been hearing about businesses and factories that won’t be recovering.
Michigan Maple Block has shut down their Petoskey, Michigan factory, ceasing operations. It is estimated that 56 workers will be impacted. Michigan Maple Block manufacturers wood butcher block products and countertops. They said that low profit margins made the company vulnerable to new economic difficulties caused by COVID-19 and the pandemic response.
Bally Block Co, Michigan Maple Block’s sister company, will continue their operations in Pennsylvania, and will continue producing Wood Welded products.
This stood out to me in particular because Michigan Maple Block and Bally Block Co make countertops and cutting boards, but also industrial workbench countertops and similar products.
In other news, and more impactful, it was reported that Alcoa will be shutting down their Ferndale, Washington aluminum smelter, impacting 700 workers as they lose their jobs.
Alcoa is said to be the country’s top producer of aluminum, and that with this closure there are only five smelters remaining in the USA, with all of them losing money and with forecasts of supply being far greater than demand.
At this time there are efforts to avoid the planned closure, but at this time the circumstances don’t sound optimistic.
These are not and will not be the only businesses to succumb to COVID-19-related challenges and economic hardships.
I recently read that it will take a few years for the airline businesses to recover, and a little more beyond that to return to 2019 levels of growth.
Everything is intertwined and related. With fewer domestic travel will come less business for service-related industries.
Less travel could mean fewer commercial ventures or innovations. How many airports will delay planned expansion or renovation projects? How many hotel renovation and construction projects will be impacted?
The current situation sucks, and it is becoming increasingly clear that there will be short and long-term impacts.
Right now, it’s looking like schools will be closed until next fall – at the least. Even if businesses re-open with stringent safety protocols in place, a lot of people won’t be able to work if schools and childcare establishments are not re-opened. How will kids’ lives and developments be altered by this?
This is a very complex situation.
Restaurants – those that haven’t closed temporarily or permanently – are still running delivery orders. Some stores are still open and conducting business but in a modified way.
Everything is a mess, and quite frankly this is one of those times I am really glad I’m not a politician or in any kind of leadership role.
Healthcare workers are under huge stress and strain. While some hot spots seem to be pas their peaks, there are still high numbers of infections, high numbers of individuals require critical and life-saving care, and high numbers of deaths.
About 2-1/2 weeks ago, I drafted a post (but never published it), and quoted some then-accurate figures of more than 1 million cases of confirmed infections in the USA and 3 million worldwide, and more than 56K deaths reported in the USA and 208K deaths worldwide.
As they stand now, there are 1.41M confirmed cases in the USA, and 83,514 deaths related to COVID-19. Worldwide, there are 4.29M confirmed cases and 293K deaths.
I hope that you’re all well. I hope that those in charge can figure out ways to open things up in a safe manner. I hope there are inroads on vaccine development, and that things can return to as close to normal as possible. I think it’s becoming clear that things will be different, and some changes will be irreversible.
These days there are a lot of heated feelings and political criticisms and arguments when it comes to the pandemic response. Please try to keep your comments civil and avoid politics as much as possible.
John
Stuart,
Level headed post. Appreciated. Too many quacks and conspiracy idiots out there. Biggest problem is this nation’s disease of “I’m an American and I can do anything I want and don’t have to follow any rules.” That nonsense will destroy this country. I just don’t understand why so many people are so selfish and clueless. Education is no longer important in this country to the masses. They are perfectly content not improving themselves, their communities or the greater good.
This pandemic shows we have lost the unity of a nation that was seen during and after WWII and 9/11. Too many people want to burrow themselves into a tribe of small thinking.
William Adams
Yeah, the stimulus payments should have been provided conditionally in consideration of the current prevailing mindset — in exchange for a promise to stay home by folks who were unable to go out to work — folks who are still working could have gotten a lesser payment in exchange for a promise to limit travel to only work and essentials.
Ben
John,
I fully agree with your statement. I think you also hit the nail on the head with respect to education. We as a nation do not value widespread education and the long term effects of that are now showing in how people act.
Jim Felt
Isn’t this just a fine mess we’ve allowed ourselves to devolve into.
Facts and science are held by many as equals to opinions and here say.
This sad trajectory scares the poo out of me for our country and our once vaunted place in the world. Going to be hard to get that back after this debacle.
razl
>>Education is no longer important in this country to the masses
I think you’re misreading it. It’s not that the masses don’t see education as important, it’s that the education system we are forced to use has different priorities than what sane people know their children need to learn to be successful adults.
Flotsam
I totally agree with your premise of your post. You would think the notion of a Pandemic that impacts all political persuasions equally would pull this country together but it hasn’t. We obviously were unprepared for anything of this magnitude and have suffered greatly.
I see these protestors too, without masks or any distancing and think this is still going to be a huge problem in this country for at least the next year. I would think any relaxation of restrictions would have had National guidance regarding distancing and maks but, I have seen none. Very sad
fred
I have not done any in-person shopping since the beginning of March. Being in that vulnerable (age and co-morbidity) categories – my wife and I have pretty much stayed put – getting our exercise by walking/puttering around the property. In the first month or so – it was difficult to get a window of opportunity for grocery deliveries from our local supermarkets – but in the last week or so that has eased. That’s either because demand has diminished – or perhaps more online shoppers have signed on with those stores/instacart.
I’m guessing that we are all wondering how we got into the mess of being #1 (or close to it) in the world in many of the worst statistics about the Pandemic. It’s not over yet – so other nations and we too may get worse yet – but I hope that our leaders have the wisdom to undertake a comprehensive, scientific and dispassionate (leaving politics and blame-games aside) after-action analysis so we might (hopefully) do better in the future.
And in speaking about “it ain’t over yet” – I see that there is a new concern that a group of children are presenting with a multi-organ inflammatory syndrome that seems to be related to the Corona Virus and has resulted in serious illness and some deaths.
Kizzle
Our response was slow. Our leaders are divided. Covid-19 has become a way to express political beliefs for some. Even more fundamental is the rejection of science. If there is a lack of understanding in the importance of the scientific method and objective reasoning, it’s not surprising that people don’t place stock in there facts. Selfishness, as you stated, is also a problem. Unless something personally affects a person, people are great at not caring about it. “Why should I care? It’s not like I have Covid-19.”
Champs
Everything is dysfunctional.
At the supermarket, staples are in short supply and for everything else you are lucky to get the lesser variant or a fancier brand at a 100% premium over what you normally pay.
Amazon is delaying nonessential orders and that’s fine. However, when the weeks until delivery day finally pass and you still come up empty… then wait five days for them to declare the package lost… and it’s both of your last two orders?
On Saturday, I found an upgrade pick for one of those packages at Lowe’s. With seven in stock at my local store, I smashed the button to order for pickup. It’s Wednesday and I am still waiting for it to be ready.
Earlier last week, Home Depot was able to fulfill a different pickup order overnight. Unfortunately that project stalled out when I realized I needed one more thing and the wait was half an hour outside the door.
It really doesn’t matter when we “reopen.” A few months here or there aren’t going to make the difference in recovery.
Coach James
For a lot of businesses, especially small businesses, a few months here or there will be the difference between reopening and never opening again. I own a small business, and another month, maybe two, I can take. A few more months of shut down, and I will be shut down permanently, so when we reopen actually does matter to me and all of my employees and their families.
Bill
Stuart, I agree that the N95 masks with the exhaust valve does not provide protection for others, from the wearer’s exhalant, but I was able to fashion a cloth covering to the inside of mine. I had a few of these left in a box of ten Milwaukee N95 dust masks, that are obviously designed only for the protection of the wearer, from particulates down to 0.3 microns, and are not the type meant for use by medical professionals involved in patient care. However, all that said, I don’t feel that completely relying on others to protect me when I am out is a wise choice. Further, despite all the initial emphasis on hand washing and the explicit recommendations not to wear a mask, it has become obvious, given the ease and rapidity of transmission of this virus, that the greatest risk of transmission is via air (respiration).
Kizzle
I just super glued the exhaust valve on my mask closed. Problem solved.
Wayne R.
Simple rationale:
https://coppercourier.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Screen-Shot-2020-05-01-at-4.34.20-PM-e1588365423770.png
Pencil Neck
Relevant: https://imgur.com/gallery/Kitu3mu
Matthew
Both of these links are spot on.
Patrick
This reply about the links is spot on.
ktash
Hilarious!
Gerald
Just a comment, I may have misread, but in all the respirator training I have gone through, they have always taught an exhalation valve is just as effective as one without.
Bill
Effective at what?
Blythe
Effective for the wearer, yes. But the air you breathe out is not filtered. So the hope that everyone contains their germs inside their mask is subverted somewhat by the unfiltered exhaust.
I would still say a exhaust style mask is much better than nothing because it keeps sneezes from projecting out into the air, and exhaust breaths a slowed and directed down
Gerald
Ah, got it. Thanks
ktash
I just tie a kerchief over my exhaust mask. Easy solution. Protects me and others, probably better for the others than just a kerchief.
schill
I finally made a “trip” to Home Depot this week. We’ve been home for 8(?) weeks now. Luckily, my wife and I are both able to work from home. We’ve done grocery runs, but that’s about it.
We ran out of salt for our water softener. I was able to order online and our local Home Depot is doing curbside pickup. It all went well although I had to wait a little while – the curbside people were trying to figure out how to fit a barbecue grill in someone’s trunk. They finally gave up. She was going to come back with another car (truck?) – same thing happened when she tried to pick up a large screen tv.
Anyway, my trip was uneventful. I wore a mask, the HD people wore masks.
However, I went on Friday afternoon and the parking lot looked like it was a normal weekend afternoon (after the morning rush). I don’t know what it looked like in the store – I didn’t leave the parking lot – but there must have been a fair amount of people in there.
Frank D
The level of arrogance and ignorance in the American population is super worrisome when it comes to public health and safety. Every grocery store, supermarket, big box store, … have to wait outside in lines for 5-10-20 minutes to get in. But … anywhere from 25% to 50% of people are not wearing the govt mandated face mask. Seriously: W T F ? ! … talked to one store cust. svc agent … well, people may have a medical condition, and we can’t discriminate against them, so … … … … ?! ??!! You have got to be kidding me!!! These people were as healthy as you and I, maybe differed by a few years … but when a 90 yr old person with several ailments can wear a mask to go to the store … so the F can you and your family who are walking through the store faster than I can!
…
The lack of education and critical thinking in the US is really starting to show the past 20 years.
Jim Felt
Betsy DeVos might be the most oxymoronic choice for Sec. of Edumacation ever but isn’t the first problem appointee.
red92s
In few exceptions, masks are not “government mandated”. They are recommended. As a nation, we’ve got a real penchant for the “Don’t Tread on Me” mentality, and fancy ourselves above being told what to do, even if it’s in everyone’s best interest.
Matthew
I appreciate the level headed post. It mirrors a lot of my own feelings. I’m lucky in that I can work remotely (for 98% of my job) but a lot of my friends aren’t that lucky. But they have mostly understood that the best thing to do is get through this the right way now and hopefully avoid a second round of lock downs.
The selfishness that a lot of people have displayed is discouraging. I guess I’ll leave it at that. Glad y’all are doing as well as can be expected (Stuart and the rest of this ToolGuyd community).
Jim Metzger
If you live in a major metropolitan area (I live just outside NYC) I am wondering what commercial office space will be like after companies realize cost saving from working at home. Even contemplating using an elevator in a high-rise building with thousands of employees and maintaining physical distancing is a logistical nightmare. What is also perplexing is the Village I live in, a modest 7500 people, has about 120 recorded cases of the virus. 2 miles down the street is a medium sized city, Yonkers, with thousands of cases. I haven’t been able to figure out the disparity in number of infections with the relative closeness of the the two areas. The four Doctors I’ve spoken to have the same comment, we have never seen anything like this and we are learning something new (not always good news) every day.
fred
I too live in a suburban village with less than 4800 inhabitants – with an area of about 9 square miles – so our population density is low. The last estimate I saw was that we had about a 1% infection rate in the village.
An adjoining community – less well-to-do and 1/6th our size in area with a population 3 times ours has a 4% reported infection rate.
What they are saying about the disproportionate impact of the virus – based on socioeconomic conditions is probably correct.
ktash
There are some unique situations. Take Michigan and Ohio. Both governors had nearly parallel shut down schedules day-by-day. Michigan closed quickly after the very first case. Yet it became a hotspot.
Was it because voting was the day before the first case tested positive, so it had a chance to spread undetected through in-person voting and Ohio hadn’t voted yet? Was it because the Detroit airport was one of the last to close, accepting international flights of people desperate to get back to the U.S. but no large Ohio airports did that?
We don’t know, but it’s counterintuitive that these very similar contiguous states would be so different in early contagion. Michigan is still fourth in number of deaths with 1/2000 population but Ohio deaths are 1/7000.
The most frightening new thing is the children. We don’t seem to know much about this. We thought kids didn’t have much chance of serious problems. I know people were letting neighbor kids, where both sets of parents were in isolation working from home, play in the yards, trying to tell them how to play while distancing, but that doesn’t work too well with kindergarteners. I’m not seeing that now.
Mike (the other one)
People demanding salons open up so they can get their hair done during a worldwide pandemic is the ultimate expression of vanity.
We will see a spike in cases, just like we did during the Spanish Flu pandemic. People would rather risk their lives and the lives of others because convenience is more important to them.
My state is gradually opening up, but I intend to keep social distancing, and stay out of stores or anywhere with large crowds as much as possible. I got sneers today when I went to the grocery store, because I was wearing a mask. Unbelievable.
JoeM
I’m diabetic and take care of my 73 year old Mother, who is also diabetic. Our doctor put us on lockdown completely. Under Canadian health code regulations, she (our Doctor) has the power to have us confined to a quarantine ward in a hospital if we break our shelter in place orders. I’m not allowed past the sidewalk that runs in front of our apartment building. I can’t even cross our parking lot.
The thinking is: until this is absolutely safe again, even the tiniest percentile of a risk is a thousand times too high to risk at all. We are both Immunocompromised. So the building, though not a proper quarantine, is the safest place to stay. Public Transit, and ANY structure outside that, are too much of a risk. No stores, no vehicles, no pharmacies, no nothing.
When I go to our building’s lobby, I need to wear gloves, a social distancing mask, shoes, pants (Never shorts, due to sever eczema on my legs causing open sores.), and use every accessibility button the building has, so I don’t touch any door handles. And that’s just to check the mail every day. Our superintendent disinfects every surface in common use, a minimum of twice an hour.
Recently our Politicians (Sorry Stewart, this is an important point that involves politicians, it’s not Politics directly.) have flip-flopped on their decisions to open schools. They left it as a choice for the parent, leaving online learning an option for those not comfortable with taking the risk. Then, just a couple days later, they walked that back, saying “We’ve had a lot of feedback from the public, and they would rather continue the online learning at home, than risk opening the schools. So we are going to keep the schools closed, and keep our teachers available via video chat remotely, so students can get hold of them as needed.”
I’m lucky enough to have a friend who makes the social distancing masks, with active filters sewn into them. They’re effective as both a social distancing mask, and do a good job of filtering a good chunk of the bad air as well. No replacement for the N95 series masks, but certainly do say pretty clearly “Stay away!”… Literally in some cases, as he also has a thermal transfer machine, and can print logos and phrases on the masks if desired. He runs a delivery service, and all his employees were given masks that literally say “Please stay 6 feet away” on them.
But here’s where it gets really sad… A lot of the technologies we’ve had to rely on heavily since the pandemic, Zoom meetings, Delivery Services, Online Ordering… These technolgies were designed for EXACTLY these situations, and to create a permanent, energy and fuel efficient, infrastructure to keep the world running in isolation. I think it’s time we stop thinking things like “When things return to Normal”… It won’t exist. It won’t return to the way things were. Things are going to have to be rebuilt with severe lockdown capabilities at the drop of a hat. Just like when OSHA rules changed how we were allowed to do safety work in certain conditions, Covid-19 is likely to change how we live our lives. If there is so much as a flu season that gets out of control, we could receive quarantine or shelter in place, orders from our medical professionals at any minute, of any day. From that point on, there could be rotating conditions like this for the next 50 years, and that would be the NEW Normal. The old ways are not going to come back. For our safety and security, the level of selfishness and ignorance that makes these pandemics worse, is going to be rapidly killed off. Whether that be through infection due to their own ignorance, or through forced precautions by government.
We will never stop caring about eachother as a community, but there will never be a care-free time in our lives ever again. We’ve crossed a threshold between global warming, and extreme worst-case-scenario outbreaks like Novel Coronavirus has created. We can’t go backward, no matter how hard we try. Maybe those plants that shut down will open again? They won’t be the same, but they could be opened again, once they can be adapted to have regulations in place for employees to rely on being safe in the future.
And, yes… I think this one is a winning point for the Nerds of the world. High Contact, Group and Team Athletics, and the broadcasts that put people and crowds in front of those players, may well be at an end. It may well be a revolution to individual or group building and making based entertainment that takes over. I’m sure many of these sports will still be played, but the scale will be forcibly minimised, so to reduce the suceptability of more outbreaks. Concerts, Awards Shows… Anything that can be converted to a broadcast to the home, instead of a communal experience… I do believe those will be the dominant form of entertainment from here on out.
Though, truth be told… they’ve been slowly dying since the 1980’s anyways… so it isn’t as big a loss as one might think. And I think we can make far better use of Theaters, Movie Multiplexes, and Stadiums in the digital age, than we ever could for sports teams. I don’t mean to be all doom-and-gloom on this, I see potential for a far more interesting use for these multi-billion dollar industrial complexes than what they’re doing now.
Chris
50 years of rolling lockdowns? With all due respect, you really are too doom and gloom. Turn off the news. Go for a socially distanced walk.
You will be stunned at how close to “back to normal” things will ultimately get. Maybe not soon, but we’re not living lives in isolation forever. The societal costs will be too great to bear.
ktash
JoeM, you make some interesting points about the “new normal.” I do think there will be huge cultural shifts in some areas. More people working from home, for instance. A lot of folks I know like it better than being in an “open space” office anyway. I read an article by a middle schooler who said she was learning much better from home without the chaos/bullying that goes on socially and is distracting. Though the parents may need the child care, is it really better for all kids?
I don’t think it will be as dire as you think, but I also know that the 1918 pandemic affected my great grandparents and grandparents. All of them appeared to the younger generations to be germophobes. But they were just doing things that had kept them alive and they had friends/family members die back then. My grandmother would get very angry if you sent her a letter or card when you had the flu, for instance. And washing your hands each time you handled money. Now I get it as I sanitize groceries.
Also, I don’t feel as good about my local community as I once did. People are walking everywhere and it’s rare to see a mask. Most are distancing, but I see joggers flying right by people within inches. Maybe they think if they go by them fast it doesn’t count.
It’s a bit heartbreaking to see the lack of care and responsibility for others. I don’t think that will go away now that I know it’s there. Less trust in their goodness and/or common sense, in other words.
The idea of cruises is a real turnoff, large crowded events are not something I’ll ever enjoy in the same way. Airplanes only out of necessity now, not for fun. I often got sick after a trip on plane or train anyway. Too many shared germs. I always blew it off before. No longer. I suspect a lot of people will change and that will change the culture.
DML
One theme in some of these comments is the rejection of science and devaluation of education as a reason why some people are acting the way they are. I would agree that simple observation can lead to that conclusion, but would offer that if one looks a bit deeper and asks ‘why’ many people exhibit such sentiments the answer is quite obvious. Science around the world has been compromised by the need to secure funding. This has caused scientific ‘findings’ and data ‘interpretation’ to trend toward alarmism since that is an effective means to capture the next big grant. Sadly, this has eviscerated the peer review process and it’s very difficult to find truly independent science rooted in the scientific process anymore. In terms of education, people have become so skeptical of what they are told by our politicians, public officials, experts, and media outlets because they have been repeatedly misled and lied to over and over again for the sake of one agenda or another. Many people have lost all trust in our “leaders” and are reverting to trusting their own judgement and coming to their own conclusions. It is likely true that the independent American spirit is a factor, but in the past Americans felt less manipulated and thus were more willing to concede the benefit of the doubt and comply.
firefly
Precisely. Furthermore the response to coronavirus is disproportionate and cause more harm than good. The death rate is still pretty low. Probably even lower if everyone is tested and accounted for. So even if we don’t do anything most of us will be just fine.
Even if we shutdown everything most of us will end up with coronavirus sooner or later if we haven’t already. That is unless we all go into isolation forever which is not feasible nor realistic.
Personally I see no need to shutdown anything but rather practice reasonable risk mitigation such as mandate the use of mask in public place among others should be more than sufficient.
fred
In some utopian or fantasy society our hospital systems and staffing would be able to immediately expand or contract as the needs warranted. The fact is that we’ve built out these facilities and educated doctors and nurses to accommodate the normal – plus a bit of overflow. That strategy makes sense economically – but not when hit with a pandemic – where the potential to overwhelm hospitals (as we saw in Italy and NY) becomes very real. Faced with the harsh reality of mounting deaths, hospital admissions skyrocketing, ICU’s being stretched beyond their limit and medical staffing being exhausted – much of the country was shut down – to prevent a collapse of the system. That strategy seemed to have worked (for the hospitals anyway) – but now we are on a path to reopening. Time will tell – where, how and if this reopening strategy works. There should be many lessons learned from this pandemic – including whether your suggestion that taking “reasonable risk mitigation” rather than shutdowns is sufficient. As we open up the nation – and rest of the world I hope that you are correct – and that we are not faced with (as Steinbeck said) “the winter of our discontent” or worse.
firefly
Actually I was just saying hypothetically like if we have a choice. Reality is our society has already make the choice of saving a few life “now” and disregard all other consequences of a collapsed economy.
Implied in my argument of not shutdown embedded the right for our hospital to reject people when over capacity. I am not saying which choice is better or more humane. But poverty and stress also kill. A collapse economy will kill far more people than say we don’t know or not aware of coronavirus at all and just go on normally with our life. I believe the number of death overall will be far less. However the corona death is far more apparent and quantifiable than the other hence society already make a choice… Now we just have to live with it.
Beside the chance that many of us are already exposed to the virus is also very high considering how late we, the whole world, responded. Hindsight is 20/20 so I am not suggesting that we could have done any better. I am just suggesting that by the time people start to (over)react it’s likely already too late.
Regardless of the choice society have/will made. I strongly believe that most of the toolguyd crowd are more fortunate than other and will made it out relatively unscathed.
ktash
Fred, I know a number of people in the healthcare profession who are on the front lines. For those people, I don’t know how they will endure a “second wave.” It’s really dire.
In my immediate family, four of five are expecting to lose their businesses/jobs. None of us thinks it is worth it to open too quickly. The pain of lost jobs and/or lost homes is really, really bad. But it doesn’t compare in my mind, to lost lives.
No one mentions the high degree of disability for those who survive especially without medical care in an overloaded situation. It’s not an either/or. It’s a both/and. Flattening the curve is still the right thing for the economy.
Capitalism is based on the idea that companies that are poorly run or superfluous will go under. JC Penny has been gutted for a long time. They aren’t just a casualty of Covid-19.
Perhaps we need to take the time we are shut down to make new plans for a better economy, one that doesn’t rely on JIT necessities from the other side of the globe. In this sense, a shutdown with a sensible reopening could be just what we need for new plans to emerge.
Flotsam
When our leadership shows no concern or a wish to demonstrate that wearing a mask is important do you really think that these people will comply?
Benjamen
While I agree with you somewhat that science has been compromised by securing funding, there is still good science being done. Another piece of the puzzle about why people don’t trust is lack of science communication.
There are very few science writers left at major publications, they have been replaced with company written PR statements and editors adding click bait headlines.
You’ll get a study saying that in circumstance A, substance B reduces symptoms of condition C. The press release from the company says our substance B is effective against condition C. Then the editors slap on the headline “Condition C is cured!”
Couple that with the horrible job we do of educating people to critically examine the information we get, and we are left with: Science said last year this was true, now they are saying it’s not, I don’t believe anything they say anymore.
ktash
Not to mention that science is supposed to work by testing various theories and seeing what direction that takes until there is a robust theory with lots of research supporting it. That may look like flip-flops but it is the discovery process.
Bob
DML is correct about the corruption of “science”.
Lack of accurate unbiased information has pushed the skeptacisim meter deep into the red.
One of the myriad of recent examples: A story was pushed at the beginning of this mess that face masks were not effective against Wu Flu! They even told us if you don a mask you are at higher risk of contraction. Blatantly false!!! (We know a poor fitting mask will increase your chance of infection but that was not what was presented) Ignorance pretending to be “facts and science” perpetuates this “truth” problem.
In light of the lack of actual real science available I make no apologies for applying a heavy sense of skepticism againts so called “authorities”.
The indisputable fact is they, you, me, we…..don’t have all, some, most…..of the answers. Even if they are acting in good faith, much of the information they are disseminating could and has turned out to be false as this evolves. And honestly is that much different from previous wide scale problems? Look at all the false info perpetuated at the begining HIV/Aids or the nuclear pollution from Chernobyl or the Iceland volcanic eruption or insert world wide catastrophe. Reputable purveyors of truth will use their best judgment to try to present the facts, as they know, at that time to the public AND disclose when they are wrong. Not sure there are any of those left.
By the, way when did it become a bad thing to say “we don’t know yet but are studying it.”?
Also when did American citizens turn into a bunch of five-year-olds that have to have mommy and daddy (government) hold our hand all the time? WTF happened to self-reliance and self accountability? Not to mention basic civility.
I will continue to use MY best judgement to keep safe. That includes a healthy dose of basic common sense first, caution, as well as curtesy for others and an awareness of “official” information. I will amend my descisions as potentially correct new information becomes available. Call me what you wish. Ignorant. Uneducated. Paranoid. I assure you I am not any of these. As a free American I also understand peoples right to disagree with me and not to quarantine or adopt safety measures. This is the price of freedom. I don’t have to like it but I have considered the alternatives and fully embrace it.
Stay safe. Stay healthy.
Stuart
Science doesn’t always get things right the first time. Observations and new data changed the guidelines as we learned more.
But, the warning not to buy N95 masks was because citizens – most far away from hot spots even now – were hoarding and depleting available supplies, some in massive quantities for resale before retailers shut that all down.
Courtesy towards others is an increasingly rear trait these days.
The problem is that if select individuals refuse to wear cloth masks, that breaks the system, and now everyone needs to adhere to more stringent distancing and find a way to source higher filtration masks for individual protection. Wearing a cloth mask to protect others only works if everyone does it. If even a few decide not to, the risk to everyone else is only minimally reduced and the contagion can more easily spread. Cloth masks do very little to protect those that wear them.
fred
I think that here may also be a corollary with vaccination strategies. I’ve read that vaccinations for things like Measles work best if the vast majority (not me – as I had the disease in the 1940’s) of the population has been vaccinated. Some children may need to opt out because of other health issues – but if a major percentage of parents decide to withhold vaccination from their children then the disease can resurge and spread. I know that it is complicated – and the internet has reportedly helped to spread different opinions (factual or not) about vaccinations. But one thing we know is that diseases like smallpox have been eradicated based on widespread worldwide vaccination.
This all challenges our notions about how we should try to balance the good of society versus the rights of indivuals and personal freedom. Overregulation and governmental control is a bad thing – but so is anarchy. The challenge is how to balance the two extremes – and we find ourselves in an extraordinary time where that challenge is being sorely tested.
If we had the prescience to know how it will all turn out – then it would be easy to know exactly what to do and when to do it. Unfortunately only God is omniscient.
I am confident that we will get through this – but will be profoundly changed. In 10 or more years – once we gain the perspective of history – people will undoubtedly look back and say: ” this action was genius” – or “that action was really stupid”.
Stuart
Unfortunately, even with balance, societal guidelines will never please everyone.
Benjamen
Actually no, it is not blatantly false, it is still very true that improper use of a mask is going to increase your chances of contracting Covid19. The mask will concentrate the virus on the fabric and when you touch your mask after you put it on or take it off improperly you now have a healthy dose of Covid19 on your hands.
What changed is our understanding of how Covid19 is spread through the air. Originally they were using the Influenza model where a distance of 6 feet is adequate protection and a mask just increases the risk of transmission because of what I stated above.
So with our new understanding of how Covid spreads, catching the infected droplets an infected individual breathes out outweighs the problems with incorrectly wearing a mask…in many experts opinions.
But it isn’t a black and white thing — wearing a mask protects you from Covid19 or it make it worse. To make a recommendation you have to weigh many factors:
How many people will get infected by wearing a mask incorrectly?
What percentage of people will actually wear masks?
How many people will ignore social distancing because they feel safe not wearing a mask?
What other unforseen consequences will there be for either case?
A change in any one of those numbers will tip the balance one way or the other.
firefly
Well said Ben. The thing about science is it’s never black and white. Most people just want a simple yes or no. They don’t want to hear about confident number nor probability. So there are science and there are the art of dissemination of science to the mass. In which sometimes half truth are better for most.
Dan Paquette
I go out and forage for food about every two weeks. I’ve always worked from home for the last 26 years, so my works days as a cyber security sales engineer are just as long and crazy as they’ve ever been. ironically, while Covid has had some negative affect on our sales, it has also created some opportunities as our customers have struggled to enable their employees to work from home and do so securely. I’m grateful that to this point I and my team are fully employed and have some degree of job security so far.
Anyway… Up until last weeks run to the super market and Sams Club… Crowds were lacking on the week days and there were no waits in line at the cashiers. Last week in anticipation of NC partially reopening, the carts were 5 and 6 deep at Sams and 2 and 3 deep at the super market. We are going to remain cautious until the data evolves more and the treatments evolve as well. Five weeks back our elderly neighbor three doors down died from Covid, so that made things a bit more of a reality for us ( and the whole neighborhood).
Planegrain
My state still has 14 days left of “Stay @ Home” law. I haven’t been in any store since the middle of March. I still think gas stations should have people in protective gear pumping gas for the public. I try to follow the “Program “ , but see many that interperate the ruling differently. I do not have a mask.
Planegrain
Interperate- Interpret
Dave
30 year olds cowering in their closets ordering everything on line while an 88 year old widow uses her walker to go to the grocery store. Will God ever forgive us for our selfishness?
We should have done everything in our power to aid the vulnerable and kept everybody else working(other than places like New York). It’s just as selfish for those same not-at-risk people to hide and contribute to destroying the economy for the foreseeable future.Those not at risk should have kept carrying on, while those at risk should have been protected. Selfishness caused nearly the exact opposite. Again, will God ever forgive us for ignoring the vulnerable while those at little risk hid?
I guess I’ll just keep working like I have every single day and keep paying my taxes so those under 60/65 and healthy hiding at home can do so on my money. If you want a life without risk, go for it-just don’t ask me to pay for it.
Stuart
Valid arguments.
The problem is that nobody knew what would happen, they only feared what could happen.
There are talks about opening things up on a regional basis, but the problem there is that widespread testing is needed to ensure that this doesn’t result in uncontrolled spread, and testing capabilities aren’t where it needs to be yet.
Right now, when anything opens up, people are cavalier about packing inside like sardines. There needs to be a reasonable midpoint between that and wearing a hazmat suit.
My current attitude is to stay out of everyone’s way as much as possible.
DaveZ
Stuart,
Good post, but even better is the audience that you have assembled here at ToolGuyd. This is really the only website that I bother reading the comments. Usually the comment section seems to attract a cesspool of humanity, but here I regularly learn a lot (and just plain enjoy) reading what people have to say. After years of reading Fred’s detailed and knowledgable comments, I feel like I have gotten to know him. So a shout out to Fred – enjoy “puttering around the property”!
Dave
I am 60 and I’ve been lucky and have also taken care of myself, so I’m not at risk and I’ve worked every day.
I see very elderly people pushing their walkers into the grocery story while healthy 30 year-olds hide in their closets and offer no help. Talk about a weak, selfish society that we’ve become…
Will God every forgive us for leaving the most vulnerable to fend for themselves while we the strong who have a very tiny risk hide?
I’ guess I’ll just keep on working and paying my taxes so my money can go to the selfish who only think of themselves.
I just can’t get those images of the elderly going into the grocery stores… God have mercy on our selfish souls.
If a healthy and statistically safe person wants a life without risk, that’s their right. Just don’t ask me to feed them.
Planegrain
I don’t make broad judgements of people. These people that are taking care of themselves, are helping by not spreading the virus. I have seen many elderly that are very strong headed. They want to do things for themselves, and what other people help them with isn’t good enough for them. They have churches & family many times, but choose to do it themselves.
Allen
Gotta return and say that I’m pleased at the considerate and level-headed replies I read here. I am an active member of an agricultural forum and a shotgun sports forum. As I read Stuart’s editorial I was dreading the evisceration I expected him to receive.
It is encouraging to read the reasoned responses given in reply, thank you all.
The lack of altruism evident in our society today is worrying, as is the trend towards, as one person said, the elevation of opinion to the level of scientific information.
Our society is bi-polar, this is impeding our ability to respond to events such as we are facing. Opinions once formed, are impervious to change.
Seir Cram
“May you live in interesting times”… While a lot of this “common sense” stuff is nice, unless YOU are the person doing the actual research, it is, for the most part, second hand “opinions”. While one source says, “keep 6 feet away to avoid CV19” another says, “6 feet apart is the minimum distance 5G wireless can differentiate individual cell phones” another research says “31ft is the minimum needed for social distancing based on actual CV19 dispersal research”… My biggest problem is the “totalitarian” creep of our once “Land of the Free” country, where now any crisis is an excuse. My privacy and my freedoms, including personal health choices, are being taken away. There is a reason why you cannot sue vaccine manufactures directly (you have to go to National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program instead). My wife is a retired Doctor and the idiocy of American “healthcare” is one of the reasons she retired early. There is a reason why it is called a “Practice” and not “I’ve got it 100% right all the time”. And now we have states like Washington saying that if you do not do what “they” want you to do, you will be forced to stay home, period. No going out for anything, including your own groceries. Once CA county wants to forceably remove people from the homes to take them where “they” believe is in “there” best interests. Are we forcing many Americans to “draw a line in the sand”?
Stuart
Science involves observation and data at the least, and these things take time.
If you treat this as an isolate situation, the fact of the matter is that if one defies current safety guidelines and ventures into public without social distancing or wearing a mask, they put others’ health and lives at risk.
If an adult wants to ride a bike or motorcycle without a helmet, it’s their life to risk. But in this case, almost akin to the risk a drunk or impaired driver poses to pedestrians, throwing caution and safety to the wind affects not only the individual, but those around them.
Not to mince words, I don’t want myself or anyone I know to end up on a ventilator or in the ground because my neighbor might insist on going out in public without a mask as a protest against “totalitarian creep” onto our freedoms.
If/when higher filtration masks are more available, THEN I’m all for freedom of choice. If you don’t want to protect yourself, that’s fine, it’ll be everyone’s individual choice. Those who want to protect themselves will be able to. But right now, there is no form of self-protection available due to N95 shortages – even healthcare workers and those that work with the public in high risk scenarios have to reuse masks or improvise.
On the other side of things, I can definitely see where you’re coming from. Is this a stepping stone on the path to more personal freedoms being stripped away? I’d say you can’t think like that, but you might say that if you don’t, the consequences might be irreversible.
The USA death count is currently ~85,000, but is likely far higher than estimated.
I am of the stance that there will be time for discussion, analysis, and future planning, after all this calms down.
But right now this is a state of public emergency, where guidelines and mandates require individuals do their share to protect the greater communities – IF they wish to be a part of those communities.
If someone wants to smoke or vape, they can, and modern regulations limit the public exposure of these personal activities. Certain individual actions hold strong potential to affect others. In this case, the choice not to wear a mask can infect, harm, and even kill others.
What alternatives are there right now? Should those who refuse to wear masks be financially or even criminally liable if they are asymptomatic and infect others?
This isn’t a sarcastic or rhetorical question. Given what we know, there is a highly contagious virus that kills some people – even the young and healthy – while others are mildly affected or even asymptomatic. What would be viable alternatives other than wearing masks to limit potential spread? Public health requires intervention. But if not masks, then what?
You wear a mask to protect me from you. I wear a mask to protect you from me. At this time, there are no supplies for me to protect myself from you, or you to protect yourself from me.
What alternate system would allow for lower risks of transmission? I can’t answer this – can you? (Again, honest question.) Until there are more options, we have to suck it up and abide by the guidelines.
It might eventually be said that closures could have been avoided if mask mandates were put into place earlier and even beforehand. Guidelines are reactionary and it’s going to be a fluid situation. At this point they know more about the virus, but there’s still a lot to learn and a lot of unknowns. Guidelines are going to change as the medical field better understands things.
CraftsmanForever
One comment on the death count, The death count is inflated because people with underlying conditions, if they have the coronavirus that caused them to get pneumonia they’re counted as a coronavirus death. We don’t do this practice if somebody gets the flu and develops pneumonia but has heart disease. The count is inflated greatly because hospitals are getting additional money for coronavirus deaths
Stuart
The count is also said to be an under-estimate since it’s not counting the surge of people that are dying at home and not at hospitals. Perhaps the over and under inflations cancel each other out.
What remains true is that many tens of thousands of people in the USA have died because they were infected with COVID-19, and they would otherwise still be alive, at the least according to statistical averages.
CraftsmanForever
But the death rate is like any other virus or disease that we have in the United States currently.
More people die of heart attacks and cancer then this virus so far. Even if you die at the house I bet most people are being tested to see if they had the coronavirus so the insurance will pay them more money for the life insurance.
fred
Maybe an after-action analysis will sort all this out. There is the concept of “excess death rate” – where one tries to assign a number to COVID-19:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6919e5.htm
Anyway – like most things in life – its complicated.
An old story tells of a senator giving a speech on prior to the vote on Prohibition. He was said to say :
“If we are talking about alcohol, demon rum the scourge of many families and ruination of many people’s health – then I’m in favor of Prohibition
But – if we are talking about alcohol that magic elixir that warms us against the chill of the night, that encourages comradeship and social intercourse – then I’m resolutely against its prohibition.”
Flotsam
Wrong the death count is UNDERREPORTED! There are people that have died at home and may have had the COVID-19 virus but were NEVER tested because of lack of tests . I know of a number of cases particularly in Northern NJ and NY where this is the case. No one is testing deceased persons.
So to act as if this is no worse than the flu is greatly understating the scope of the problem.
Coach James
Here is another reason people are skeptical. I have seen articles saying the death count is too low, but also articles saying it has been inflated. Dr. Birx stated this week, that it may be inflated by as much as 25%.
The governor of Illinois gave a press conference recently and his Dept. of Health expert stated that if you are already in hospice with a terminal illness and have the virus when you die, it is counted as a Covid-19 death. I have read in, what are supposed to be trustworthy, newspapers, that some other states are doing the same as in, regardless of what disease causes a death, if Covid-19 is present in the person, it is counted as a Covid-19 death.
Throw in the number of elected representatives demanding that we stay home, while they do not, and people are going to be skeptical.
CraftsmanForever
Well, I guess I’ll get a lot of negative comments on my post. I think we jumped the gun on this so called pandemic. I realize that this virus is very contagious but closing all “nonessential“ businesses was not the answer. Any business that sold food ,car parts, chemicals, or home supplies we are allowed to stay open In the first month those stores were packed. You didn’t have to wear a mask and they were not any plexiglass on the cash registers. We did not have an outbreak due to those stores.
I was fine to shut down for 15 days at the beginning to help the hospitals in the hotspots but they were only very few hotspots that occurred. Mostly areas were people were packed like sardines or hugging at funerals or at large gatherings like Mardi Gras. All businesses could have been opened and adhered to the practices that the essential businesses are abiding to now.
The death rate on this virus is low now based on the numbers we are seeing but the politicians have made this a political battle for the presidency. More research should’ve been done initially to safeguard the elderly in retirement homes and better isolation practices should’ve been followed. Half of the deaths in New York City are from retirement homes when they placed people back in the retirement homes when recovering from the virus
I serve my church and give my time to serve others but this is crazy What we have to do is don’t shake hands, don’t hug people, wash your hands frequently, don’t touch your face and will be fine. This is like a bad flu season which my parents avoid crowds during those times.
Planegrain
There is new data out from New York City Health(May 13th). This data shows that 75% of deaths had underlying conditions. I’m thinking that some of the 25% may have had hidden underlying conditions also. If this data translates US wide. Then perhaps more priority should have been placed on isolating these people.
Aram
Depending on exactly how your local authorities count things (it’s not consistent across counties, never mind across states), I’d bet most of the readers on this site have at least one underlying condition, and most probably have more.
…for example, being overweight can count. Are we all trim 21 year olds with zero body fat? I’m not, and I’m guessing most here are not. Anyone here have diabetes? That’s widely considered to be an underlying condition…
People routinely underestimate their own risk for this sort of thing, and as a consequence usually tend to underestimate the risk for everyone they know.
The actual death toll won’t be known until epidemiologists can look back and establish how many “excess deaths” occurred in this period. Nowhere near every fresh body is being checked so we can only estimate how many have died as a result.
With respect to this being like the usual flu, it’s not. So far in the US it kills ~3.4% of those infected (estimated to date), whereas the seasonal flu kills around 1%. The total death toll for seasonal flu is somewhere between 24K and 62K (also estimated) — which Covid-19 surpassed a little while ago having on infecting a smaller percentage of the total population. If Covid-19 reaches the same percentage of the population as the seasonal flu, between 81K and 210K people will die, without counting deaths that may occur due to overstretched medical facilities (remember, the point of all this lockdown is not to stop the virus, it’s to slow the impact enough that hospitals don’t get swamped).
Given that the lower bound has already been passed, one can reasonably suspect that the death toll will be in the middle to upper end of that band.
Whether those deaths are “worth” the economic harm is a separate question, but I suggest that people should consider the question in the context of their own life, not merely “those people over there”.
CraftsmanForever
According to the CDC as of today Covid 19 death rate is at 1.3%. In my state of Georgia the governor is making people reevaluate the death certificates to remove COVID-19 as a cause of death if you had things like heart attack or on hospice care and etc.
Number of deaths for leading causes of death this year
Heart disease: 647,457
Cancer: 599,108
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 169,936
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 160,201
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 146,383
Alzheimer’s disease: 121,404
Diabetes: 83,564
COVID-19: 56,977
Influenza and Pneumonia: 55,672
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis: 50,633
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,173
CraftsmanForever
3.6% is in another country
Big Richard
Can you cite your sources? That 1.3% is not “according to the CDC”, that is one studies’ finding. One. At least from what I have seen. Also, that same study goes on to say:
“The estimated COVID-19 death rate of 1.3% is still much higher than the U.S. death rate for seasonal flu for 2018-2019, which was just 0.1% of cases, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.”
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-covid-death.html
1.3% of 330 million Americans is still potentially 4.29 million deaths. Now that’s assuming a 100% infection rate, so maybe cut that in half. Is 2 million deaths acceptable?
CraftsmanForever
The number of Covid 19 test done = 4,882,263
The numeber of Covid 19 deaths = 60,299 today
Death rate = 1.2 today.
Those number off CDC web site
Big Richard
Oh my. When factoring mortality rate you don’t take the number of individuals tested, you take the number of individuals INFECTED. Mortality rate is the number of deaths per number of infections. So..
60,299 deaths / 1,384,930 infections = .0435 or 4.35%
Also based on CDC numbers today. This concludes this science lesson. Please, please, please, do not spread misinformation if you do not understand the basics of pathology.
CraftsmanForever
I thought i had picked the infected test number. Thanks for the correction.
DRT
I did some similar research last week. Checked data for my state (only).
2016 flu season 2187 deaths due to flu
2017 flu season 2243 deaths due to flu
2016 flu season 2395 deaths due to flu
COVID-19 1306 deaths as of last week
Now, I’m not saying this is all BS – in fact one might argue that the lockdown, mask-wearing, etc has been really effective. I haven’t seen a sick person since January. But what do you say to somebody who loses their business and maybe even their house, declares bankruptcy and is denied future loans because they are now a bad credit risk – for a death toll that is half the average season ? Government PPP loans only go so far, and in any case, most of the round 1 money apparently didn’t go to those who most needed it. (source = Wall Street Journal)
firefly
” This concludes this science lesson.” lol it’s pretty sad to try to school someone else only to spread further misinformation.
That’s not the true mortality rate since not everyone got tested. So in reality the true mortality is likely to be a lot lower.
CraftsmanForever
Let Dick have his moment. I did reference the wrong numerator. The mortality rate calculation is what it is. The death count will also be worse when the government pays extra for a Covid 19 deaths. My county went from 5 Covid 19 deaths to 1 when my Governor made them reevaluate death certificates.
Planegrain
Lots to learn from this in future outbreak control. The city of Detroit has 100,000 more people than the state of Wyoming. Do they need the same controls to limit virus spread?
Bob
Stuart, I agree with you in that the intentions of telling people not to stockpile N95 masks was to allow hospitals to stockpile. I get it. Protecting the most vulnerable is obviously the right thing to do.
BUT the act of telling me, in an official capacity, I don’t need a mask and then later telling me I will be imprisioned if I don’t have a mask severely degrades the credability of any health care, government or science based organization.
One starts to think, “If they lied about that, what else are they lying about?”. Then you get into vaccination debate, deep state conspiracy theory’s and it degrades from there.
Besides it doesn’t work. Most people heard that line of BS and said “They are telling me not to panic…..time to panic.”
I do hope we get back to “normal” soon. I think as a society we are already anti social with our “virtual” lives. Cooped up in our homes isn’t helping the situation. Yes I get the irony of me complaining as I type this so my online “friends” can read it haha
Stuart
Different circumstances.
First it was don’t wear an N95 mask, it’s not needed for personal protection.
Now it’s wear a cloth mask to contain your droplets and protect others.
There aren’t enough masks for personal protection. Even if there were, bad actors stockpiling supplies for resale or hoarding means we would need a far greater supply to meet demands.
Lying is intentional deceit or deception. It’s not lying when guielines change in response to evolving circumstances. Things were different when 99% of the country had zero cases.
There are always going to be fictions and conspiracy theories no matter the logic, rationale, or proof.
Planegrain
My nerves are getting bad, I think this will be my last post here.
Blocky
I live in nyc and have been wearing a p100 respirator the last 60 days any time I step out of my apartment. Others do what they will, and it runs the range from respectful solidarity to dgaf death wish. Oddly, I’ve found that people are more likely than usual to approach me with questions at HD or for help reaching things on the top shelf. When I started working at a PPE factory, spending all day in the same room with others, I modded my full face respirator to take dust extraction bag material as an exhaust filter. Before that, I was wearing the half face with a pocket of wypall L30s folded over. It might seem like overkill, but it’s not underkill. These carts last a long time in clean environs, and I haven’t taken a single n95 from a healthcare worker.
Robert
I was a medic for 5 years. I wear a mask because it’s like wearing a seatbelt. Why not? I believe it does hinder the transmission of sickness and if everyone adopted the practice of mask wearing and had better hygiene every year, we would have fewer sick people.
However, being on the ambulance, I’ve seen medical “science” at work from the inside. Mostly it’s just fear based. Medicine is all about profit and the greatest way to make money in the medical realm is via fear. As medics we are taught, when someone refuses to go with us to the hospital, to basically read out a looming death sentence to the person refusing. Even if we know they’re fine, the ambulance service doesn’t make any money on a refusal.
Everyone is afraid of sickness and death, so we tell them that they “could” have a more serious problem and “could” fall asleep and never wake up. You know what? The people that were gripped by fear always hopped on that gurney. No questions asked. They didn’t want to take a chance, even when all of the signs and symptoms were saying they were fine.
The medical realm shrugs off the manipulation as if they’re doing good by “potentially saving someone’s life”. And occasionally they do save a life, I never saw someone that I knew didn’t need it get saved, but I’ve heard stories.
I have, however, seen doctors kill people from mixing medications, forgetting medications, or just doing stupid stuff. Doctors are some of the most arrogant people I’ve ever known (not all, but 90%), and they think that their pharmacy based “science” (paid for by pharmaceutical companies) is the ONLY way to save someone.
Modern medicine has its place (emergency) but it’s not a cure-all, and certainly not meant for chronic problems as most claim.
I refused the flu vaccine every year and had to wear a mask, but everyone in our station still got sick when the bug went around and I sometimes escaped it.
Oh, and my buddies still on the box say that the only patients they’ve seen die have been the ones that got intubated and placed on ventilators. Oops, we forgot that drugging someone into a comatose state might not be good for them…
Done with my rant, just my $.02.
Barks
“There are vulnerable populations, but there have also been a lot of critical cases and deaths involving younger persons and of typically good health.”? This is not a true statement.
Stuart
That is what’s being reported.
Vards Uzvards
I wore an N95 mask while going to couple stores today (first day when it’s a mandatory requirement in New Mexico). As it happened I don’t even have a bandana on hand, to wear instead of a mask. It felt like I’ll develop shortness of breath / breathing problems *because* of PPE 😉