Milwaukee first announced their new M18 High Demand 9.0Ah battery pack last year, and although it has been delayed, it is nearly ready to launch.
The new Milwaukee M18 HD battery pack is designed to power their heaviest duty cordless power tools, such as the new M18 Fuel 10″ sliding miter saw.
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Just a few weeks ago, Dewalt announced their new FlexVolt technology, which includes a novel battery pack design, a range of 60V Max power tools, and 120V Max dual-battery power tools that can also be powered via an AC adapter. Dewalt FlexVolt battery packs are backwards-compatible with the brand’s 20V Max power tools and chargers.
Read more about Dewalt FlexVolt here, or check out these recent stories:
- Dewalt FlexVolt Introduction
- Dewalt FlexVolt Q&A (More Details)
- Hands-on with the New Dewalt FlexVolt Cordless Saws
- Dewalt FlexVolt Brushless Circular Saw First Look
- Dewalt FlexVolt Saw Intro Videos
The two heavy hitting brands are taking very different approaches to work towards the same goal – a cordless jobsite.
Which is better? This is a question a lot of pro tool users are asking right now, and I’ll tackle the question as best I can. But first, let’s work through a bit of background info so we’re all on the same page.
Battery Pack Basics
Today’s Li-ion battery packs are typically built using similar individual cells.
In a typical 18V or 20V Max battery pack, you have 2 rows of 5 cells, for 10 total. Each cell delivers 3.6V of power, which when multiplied by 5 equals 18V of nominal voltage. The 2 rows of cells are connected in parallel, to increase the charge capacity of a high capacity (Dewalt) or XC (Milwaukee) battery pack.
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Compact battery packs have only a single row of 5 battery cells.
A typical high capacity battery pack can be described in terms of how many cells are in series, and how many sets of cells are in parallel.
A typical compact battery pack can be descried as having a 5S1P configuration (or simply 5S), and a typical high capacity or XC pack can be described as having a 5S2P configuration. 5×2 = 10 total cells.
Dewalt FlexVolt
Dewalt’s FlexVolt battery packs natively operate in 20V Max mode. Instead of 1 row of 5 cells as in compact battery packs, or 2 rows of 5 cells as in high capacity packs, FlexVolt battery packs have 3 rows of cells.
In this mode, the FlexVolt battery pack can be described as having a 5S3P configuration.
But there’s something special about Dewalt FlexVolt battery packs. When paired with certain tools, the internal contacts between battery cells are reconfigured, connected all of them in series.
4V Max (3.6V) x 15 = 60V Max (54V nominal).
Dewalt will be launching the FlexVolt product family with a 6.0Ah battery pack (20V Max mode). In 60V Max mode, it will have 2.0Ah capacity. In 120V Max mode, which requires 2 FlexVolt batteries, the capacity will also be 2.0Ah.
But Dewalt is also launching higher capacity battery packs in a few months, with 9.0Ah capacity in 20V Max mode, and 3.0Ah capacity in 60V Max mode.
The FlexVolt 9.0Ah battery pack will be slightly larger, because it will consist of slightly larger and more capable battery cells.
Milwaukee M18 High Demand
Milwaukee’s M18 9.0Ah High Demand battery pack can be described as a 5S3P battery pack.
With a third row of cells connected in parallel, a High Demand pack can deliver more power than an XC battery pack, and it should also run a little cooler.
Milwaukee on the Defense and Offense
Milwaukee took a defensive and offensive stance the day Dewalt announced their new FlexVolt battery pack and cordless power tools.
They peppered their social media accounts with talk of their M18 High Demand battery pack, and also launched a new webpage that compared the two technologies, of course in their favor.
I have noticed Milwaukee making some fresh efforts to get the word out about their M18 High Demand technology.
In a comparison, this is what they say about their High Demand battery:
- 15 cell power output
- Up to 50% more work per charge
- All M18 batteries work with all M18 tools
And this is what Milwaukee says about Dewalt’s FlexVolt tech:
- 15 cell power output
- Con: less work per charge
- Con: smaller system
- Con: 20V tools with 60V pack do not deliver 60V performance
- Con: 20V packs do not work with 60V tools
They use + and -, and I take the “minus” to mean “con.”
Let’s look at those cons. Less work per charge? True, if you consider the FlexVolt 6Ah pack and not the 9Ah pack that is coming soon.
Smaller system? True. But I’m sure more tools are coming.
As I’ll discuss more in a bit, while the FlexVolt system might be smaller, I think it will potentially benefit more users than Milwaukee’s M18 High Demand battery pack will.
20V tools with 60V packs do not deliver 60V performance? So what? You still get greater runtime. And when Dewalt’s 9Ah pack comes out, it might be superior to Milwaukee’s 9Ah pack, based in battery cell power potential.
That 20V Max packs don’t work with 60V Max tools is indeed a major downside to the FlexVolt platform.
But, Milwaukee’s M12 and M18 tools and batteries are not compatible, only sharing a couple of multi-voltage chargers between both product families. At least Dewalt’s FlexVolt batteries are one-way cross-compatible with 20V Max tools and chargers.
As you can tell, I’m not a fan of Milwaukee’s comparison – it seems unfair, at best.
Milwaukee: Voltage is only PART of the story…
This is Milwaukee’s motto when comparing their High Demand tech to Dewalt’s Flexvolt tech. And they’re right. They’re worried that professional tool users will focus on the numbers, that they will believe 60V Max is superior to M18, without truly understanding the differences.
Milwaukee’s comparison is of course carefully crafted to convinced you of their superiority.
Milwaukee compares their High Demand battery pack to the 6.0Ah Dewalt FlexVolt battery pack, completely ignoring – or hiding – the fact that Dewalt has a 9.0Ah pack in the works.
Milwaukee also describes their High Demand pack as THE WORLD’S FIRST & ONLY 18V HIGH DEMAND™ 9.0 BATTERY, but it’s NOT!
Neither brands’ 9.0Ah battery packs are out yet, and at this point it’s anyone’s game. I believe both have Fall 2016 ETAs. It’s quite possible that Dewalt will beat Milwaukee to market.
Milwaukee emphasizes that their pack is built using 3.0Ah cells, and Dewalt’s with 2.0Ah cells, but they don’t tell you that the 2.0Ah cells are on-paper better than their 3.0Ah cells.
But talk to them about battery pack technology, and they’ll tell you that the battery cells are only part of the picture, and that pack design, including how thermal energy is dissipated, can make a huge difference. They are absolutely right about this too.
I have not yet seen a Dewalt rebuttal, but I anticipate that we’ll see some fierce competition between the two brands in coming months.
Dewalt FlexVolt Advantages
First, higher voltage power tools are slightly more efficient. When you have fixed power capacity (voltage x current), a higher voltage and lower current motor will be a little more efficient than a lower voltage and higher current one.
With higher current comes greater energy losses, due to internal resistance and heat. Heat is a battery cell’s biggest enemy, which is why power tool brands go to great lengths to design packs that run as cool as possible.
Dewalt’s selection of 2.0Ah cells for their FlexVolt battery pack was deliberate. And the reason for this decision also explains the selection of larger 3.0Ah cells for their slightly physically larger higher performance FlexVolt battery pack that will shortly follow.
Going from 2.0Ah to 3.0Ah, in regard to the battery cell size most brands use in their 18V-class battery packs, results in a significant and disproportionate decrease in performance potential. The best 3.0Ah cells that I have seen cannot perform comparable to the best 2.0Ah or 2.5Ah cells than brands have put to use in recent years.
Because Dewalt selected high performing 2.0Ah cells, and larger 3.0Ah cells, they can squeeze a lot of current out of their FlexVolt battery packs.
So in 60V Max mode, you have high voltage and also reasonably high current delivery potential.
I thought I had a solid understanding of the Dewalt FlexVolt battery and the new cordless power tools, but they were kind enough to answer a few questions for me over the phone.
One of the more illuminating parts of the phone call was our discussion of the power ceiling of FlexVolt tools, and it was considerably higher than I had anticipated.
Quite frankly put, Dewalt FlexVolt tools and batteries perform at a level that surpasses what 18V-class tools are capable of.
An 18V-class tool can deliver less than a theoretical 1000 watts of power. So that would be around 56A for an 18V battery pack. That’s probably not sustainable, 1000W was more thrown out there as a theoretical ceiling.
But with FlexVolt, some of the higher performing tools are designed to deliver up to around 1700 watts of power.
I am not kidding. 1700 watts of power. And in case you think I heard wrong over the phone, look up the product specs for the upcoming FlexVolt grinder, model DCG414. It’s rated at 13A and is said to deliver 1700 unit watts out of power.
Okay, so let’s say it hits a power spike of 1700 watts. If you consider 60V Max, that’s 28.3A current draw, and 31.5A current draw if you consider 54V nominal.
28.3A is within the realm of what’s possible with 2.0Ah Li-ion cells, maybe slightly higher. 31.5A is a bit higher than the on-paper ratings I’ve seen for high performing cells, but good battery pack cooling can help make it realistic.
Milwaukee is NOT going to be able crank out that level of power from an M18 High Demand battery pack. If they used the same 2.0Ah cells, instead of the lower performing but higher capacity cells their High Demand packs are built with, they could match or exceed the same power draw.
But… at 1/3 the voltage you would then have 3x the current coursing through the battery pack, and through the tool. This would create some very difficult engineering considerations. Higher current draw would require thicker wires and heavier duty components.
The Dewalt engineer I spoke through wasn’t talking about Milwaukee specifically, but they said that if you tried to design 18V-class tools that compared with FlexVolt tools, the current and operating temperatures would be so high that contacts and connections might start melting.
That seems like it could be an exaggeration, but I do believe that you can squeeze more power out of a FlexVolt battery pack than an M18 High Demand battery pack. This would also be true with Dewalt’s upcoming 9.0Ah pack.
Milwaukee M18 High Demand Advantages
I also spoke with Milwaukee product managers and engineers to better understand the capabilities and potential limitations of their new 9.0Ah battery pack.
I mentioned my hesitation about High Demand battery pack performance, stemming from the on-paper specs I’ve seen for the best 18650-sized 3.0Ah Li-ion battery packs, and they convinced me otherwise. They made it clear that there High Demand battery packs can indeed deliver the performance needed to drive the next-generation of heavy duty cordless power tools.
On paper, a 5S2P battery built with 2.0Ah cells (or even 2.5Ah cells in certain conditions) should perform comparable with a 5S3P battery built with 3.0Ah cells. So what’s the point of a 9.0Ah battery pack that’s larger and pricier? Right?
But no, on paper specs are thrown out the window in the context of a battery pack. Okay, maybe they’re not thrown out the window, but there’s much more to a battery pack design than on-paper current specs.
I recall a demo I observed at the Milwaukee 2015 media event. There were 2 M18 Super Hawg drills connected to test equipment. One was being powered by a 5.0Ah battery pack, and the other by a 9.0ah High Demand battery pack.
The power draw of the Super Hawg was so high that it eventually triggered the over-current protection on the drill powered by the XC battery, while the HD battery-powered tool kept going.
So, clearly, there’s something to Milwaukee’s M18 HD battery packs.
Imagine what they could have done if they moved to a larger form factor battery pack, similar to what several other brands have done or are doing soon. But, let’s not forget that the HD battery pack is already a larger form factor, it’s a 5S3P pack, when all other brands – excluding Dewalt – only have 5S2P packs.
Milwaukee seems to have designed their 9.0Ah High Demand battery pack without knowing about Dewalt’s FlexVolt plans, and based on my discussion with a Dewalt Product Manager about how long it took to develop the FlexVolt battery pack and tools, it seems that Dewalt started work on their battery platform before Milwaukee’s HD plans were publicly known.
Milwaukee’s M18 High Demand battery pack, and their new tools designed to take advantage of it, there is one clear advantage – complete (or near complete) backwards compatibility.
Except where there might be a physical limitation, Milwaukee’s M18 HD 9.0Ah battery pack should fit any M18 cordless power tool, charger, or accessory. That’s a big deal. Who looks forward to working with and maintaining tools and batteries from 2 or more cordless power tool lineups?
Dewalt’s FlexVolt battery packs are compatible with their 20V Max tool, chargers, and accessories, but the reverse is not true. You cannot use 20V Max batteries in FlexVolt tools or accessories.
Meanwhile, any M18 battery should fit any M18 tool.
Some of Milwaukee’s M18 tools might experience an “HD effect,” similar to their “XC effect,” where certain tools benefit from being powered with an XC battery pack instead of a compact battery pack. Users might also see a difference when running heavy duty tools in high demand applications.
So Which is Better, Dewalt FlexVolt or Milwaukee M18 High Demand?
From an objective standpoint, weighing everything together, I would say that Dewalt FlexVolt is superior to Milwaukee M18 High Demand.
But, that’s in terms of potential. I believe that Dewalt has the potential to push FlexVolt batteries to greater limits, and that it’s a more future-proof technology.
From what I’ve seen, Milwaukee’s M18 High Demand tech is most advantageous when it comes with heavy duty tools, such as Super Hawgs, large rotary hammers, and tools like that.
Dewalt’s FlexVolt tools seem to be more designed to give you cordless power tools with corded-like performance, features, and capacity.
It can be argued that many of Milwaukee’s M18 Fuel brushless cordless power tools were designed to do the same, and they have certainly made good on that promise.
Milwaukee’s M18 High Demand battery pack might be more appealing for certain users, such as those who have heavy duty needs and who don’t want to mess around with multiple tool platforms.
You’re not going to want to pair certain Dewalt 20V Max tools with a FlexVolt battery pack, such as when a compact pack would work just fine. An impact driver with a FlexVolt battery pack? No, I’d rather than an impact with a compact pack, or maybe a high capacity pack at the most.
Milwaukee has a greater selection of M18 brushless tools. Dewalt’s FlexVolt launch includes a brushless circular saw and a brushless reciprocating saw, but if you want to use 20V Max tools, you’re most likely going to have to work with the 2 separate voltages. You could have one set of chargers, but for the best user experience, you’re going to want separate 20V Max and FlexVolt tools and batteries.
I think that Milwaukee’s M18 High Demand technology is highly appealing, and there are definitely some benefits for users. But those benefits target certain users with heavy demands.
Dewalt’s FlexVolt tech offers corded-like performance and features, and potentially benefits many more users. Yes, the new battery and tools seem to be designed in part as solutions for those with heavy duty tool needs. But you get more than that.
When trying to decide whether either of the FlexVolt or M18 High Demand technologies were better than the other, it came down to one question: which holds more potential for me? And the answer to that is Dewalt FlexVolt.
If I want more runtime, I can buy more batteries. I have yet to across an application where I used a Milwaukee M18 tool and overtaxed its battery pack. But I have come across applications where there’s no M18 tool for the job.
With FlexVolt, Dewalt is introducing a cordless table saw, 12″ miter saws, some heavy duty brushless saws, and some other heavy duty tools. What’s next, a 10-inch miter saw? 10-inch cordless table saw?
If you take 10 pro tool users – contractors, electricians, plumbers, remodelers, enthusiasts, and advanced DIYers, how many would potentially benefit from Dewalt’s new FlexVolt tools and batteries? How many would benefit from Milwaukee’s M18 High Demand tools and batteries? Exactly. I think you’ll see more people interested in Dewalt FlexVolt than Milwaukee M18 High Demand.
Milwaukee is coming out with new tools, such as their 10-inch sliding miter saw, and already has a very impressive stable of M18 Fuel brushless power tools.
The new M18 sliding miter saw – does it require an HD battery? No, it can be powered by an M18 XC battery just the same, except perhaps in very heavy duty applications.
If You’ve Made it This Far
Hopefully you understand the Dewalt FlexVolt and Milwaukee M18 High Demand systems as well as I believe I do.
The question of whether one is better than the other is difficult to answer, and it gets even messier if you think about Dewalt vs. Milwaukee in a broader sense.
In terms of Dewalt vs. Milwaukee cordless lines, both brands have distinct advantages. Dewalt has been introducing more trade-specific tools, and with FlexVolt I believe they’re taking the upper hand in regard to core tools. Milwaukee has a stronger range of trade-specific tools, and will soon turn their attention to remodeling tools.
Dewalt 20V Max plus FlexVolt, vs. Milwaukee M18? We’ll get back to that another time.
But if we’re just talking about FlexVolt vs. M18 High Demand, I’d say that Dewalt holds the advantage. Do you agree? Disagree?
The next question to ask is about how Dewalt FlexVolt tools compare to Milwaukee M18 Fuel brushless tools, at least where comparisons are possible. Power? Runtime? The FlexVolt vs. M18 High Demand debate isn’t over – it’s just begun.
Albert
Stuart, will you still cover all the new Dewalt stuff at the event? 20v tools? New accessories? 60v TrackSaw?
Stuart
Yes! It’ll take me some more time to prep the next round of posts. There’s still a lot of photos and notes to go through. I’m also checking on a few things to make sure that the previews have enough details.
The FlexVolt 60V Max tracksaw was now shown at the USA event, but I have confirmed that it IS coming to the USA. The current ETA is January 2017.
Chris
Very good and interesting write up Stuart. Could there be any other sleepers out there working on something else big or equal to these upgrades for Dewalt and Milwaukee? I was close to putting a pre-order in for the Flex-volt table saw but couldn’t wait as I’m getting ready to put my house on the market and needed one instantly to replace/fix some cabinets. I went with the dw745 instead and that was great out of the box to get my project done (alignment was dead on).
Stuart
Thanks!
I don’t think so.
Bosch came out with a 6Ah battery pack, and is now coming out with a better one called EneRacer (https://toolguyd.com/bosch-connected-18v-cordless-power-tools/).
Makita seems happy with their X2 lineup.
Jerry
I lean towards FlexVolt also. Higher voltage means less amp draw which means less load on wiring/switches and cooler running given similar loads. The argument you wouldn’t want a FlexVolt on a compact impact driver because of size/weight holds true with the big honking high demand battery as well. I don’t really see the difference between using a compact 20V Max battery and a compact M18 for that application. No, you can’t use the 20V Max in your 60V saw, but you won’t be putting your M18 compact battery in your high demand Super Hole Hawg, either. You will essentially have 2 M18 platforms, as well: high demand, and standard/compact. With the FlexVolt, you get the added advantage of dual-power 120V tools as well. Will the average DIY’er see a great advantage to the FlexVolt? Probably not. But to a pro user who values productivity enough to justify the cost, I think from where I sit, FlexVolt would be the better choice.
Bremon
I think Dewalt has really come out of nowhere with FlexVolt and taken Milwaukee by surprise. I’m heavily invested in Milwaukee, but have started getting my feet wet with Dewalt’s XR stuff. I’m looking forward to FlexVolt and 9.0HD hitting the market. Hopefully fierce competition means great deals for consumers. I must say, I thought Milwaukee was also using bigger cells in the 9.0 and the mythical 6.0 and I’m quite disappointed if that proves to not be the case. With FlexVolt I’ll wait until 9.0s drop, which I was lead to believe would be in the winter. I don’t want 2.0 packs for big equipment, and I don’t want 15 cell 6.0s when I could have 10 cell 6.0s.
Micah
The reason why I switched over to mill walkie back in 2005 was because Makita and Dewalt were making cheap breakable tools. Milwaukee’s are absolutely bulletproof. You can drop them from two stories and pick them up and use them.
Micah
I have mill walkie is 28 V tools and their M 18. I am so heavily invested in Mill walkie because of their durability that there is no way I could ever switch over to DeWalt.
James C
Interesting. So new technology brings even more marketing bs and makes it even harder for consumers to make comparisons among products?
Joking aside, I’m excited to see the advances in battery technology. I’m no expert, but I would think that for many years advances in the 18650 format were driven by the laptop market. I wonder if things like electric vehicles will produce any secondary benefits for power tools.
Cerd
They already have. The first generation of Milwaukee lithium batteries (made to retrofit older 18v nicd systems) used 3AH imr 26700 cells rated for 40a discharge which were originally designed for early generations of hybrid cars.
Matt
I am also curious as to whether or not any other brands are even in the area with this high capacity technology or even worried about it. Makita, Bosch, even Ryobi or Ridgid.
I see the appeal of going completely cordless and isolating ones self to an m18 or flexvolt platform. It makes sense.
Will this have any effect on the cost of corded models of say Dewalts table or miter saws? Or will not enough people move to a completely cordless stance and have this become yesterdays news? Will they eventually bring 10″ or 12″ miters to the game?
There are too many questions for me. More so along the lines of flexvolt or high capacity m18 battery life and how long will the batts stay maintenance free compared to the life of a corded model. I dont mean to ramble. I am simply curious.
Stuart
There 60V Max FlexVolt cordless table saw is smaller than any of Dewalt’s cordless saws. Maybe an eventual 10-inch saw will overlap with the corded tools, perhaps 120V Max?, but right now there’s not much cordless vs. corded competition.
There seems like there could be competition between the 120V Max sliding miter saw and the flagship DWS780 model.
But, unless I’m mistaken, the corded one is a little more compact.
I think that there will definitely be more hybrid 120V Max tools, depending on how well they see the miter saws selling.
I would absolutely love it if more of Dewalt’s corded benchtop tools receive the 120V Max treatment, so that they could run off of either AC or 2x FlexVolt cordless battery power.
Doresoom
I think that’s the biggest draw of the FlexVolt miter saw – you can plug it in too, and that’s something that Milwaukee seems to have completely overlooked.
I don’t really have a current need for a cordless miter saw, since my corded one is bolted to my workbench. But if I was picking one that I COULD use cordless if I wanted too, it would be the DeWalt. Mainly because I could still use it plugged in long after the battery platform is abandoned, or if I have all dead batteries.
Cerd
I don’t think the corded tool market will ever change. Cordless tools will always need batteries to be replaced. Corded tools typically only need brushes, but that problem is approaching nonexistent since brushless motors have been introduced to the market. For the most part, corded tools are cheaper initially and much cheaper in the long run.
Jim Premo
Ridgid has gone to a larger battery format with their 5.0ah battery. I would expect that they will offer increased capacity batteries as the market seems to be heading toward tools that require more power.
Jason
The 18650 lion cells that the cordless companies have been using for years seem to have been tapped out amperage wise on the higher AH cells. They have had to up size the cells to compensate it seems.
Nathan
I agree with most of that. I would say that on engineering paper Dewalt’s system has the potential advantage at the higher end of tool performance. IE where you need more torque/rpm out of a motor be it brushless or brushed – the ability to have more voltage on tap allows for a better overall design.
Now the game will be – do the fully capitalize on that ability. I like the idea of a tool that is setup to run cordless or corded – like those new mitre saws. Love that – do both why not. I’m still a little disappointed in the table saw but I bet even money they make a newer model of the 7491 that uses the same dual battery setup. And I’d probably trade mine out for one of those one day.
I think the real market maker for them is the that power station device. charges 4 packs but also produces a 115Vac line out. yes please.
milwaukee still makes very fine tools – often well made well balanced and plenty powerful for the task at hand. But you know – objectively so does dewalt. They say you’re only as good as your competition. Which makes me so disheartened to read the comments milwaukee marketing makes about the Dewalt system. Poor show.
fred
Great thought-provoking piece Stuart!
When it comes to new tool buying decisions – life is a bit complicated. Good fleet (whether that is your fleet of trucks or heavy equipment or even non-capital tools) management practices suggests that there comes a point where you need to bite the bullet, take the salvage value (if any) for the existing item and move on to buying new. We had some of our portable tools serviced when they were no longer working correctly (or at all). Our decision-making process on cordless tools was a bit more complicated than for corded ones – because the batteries factored into the equation. Naturally, if the cost of the repair was going to be close to the cost of buying new, then we’d scrap the tool. If it was less than 50% of the cost of buying new – then we might repair it – but started considering the prospective longevity of the fleet in which it was part. When NiCad battery-powered tools were being replaced with NiMH ones – we decided that most of our cordless tools and batteries still had enough life left to continue to be useful. By the time Li-Ion batteries started appearing – many of our NiCad batteries were starting to become funky – so the switch to Li-Ion tools (we went with Makita 18V LXT at that time) seemed like a good decision. So in effect, I can see letting the batteries make the decision for you. If you have several hundred Makita LXT batteries (as we did) – as they age out – you consider the economics of replacing them versus moving onto a newer and potentially better (for productivity) platform. Meanwhile – it’s probably wise to try out a few of the new offerings (e.g. Dewalt FlexVolt and Milwaukee High Demand) to see if they truly add high value to your business.
Stuart
Thank you!
It’s a hard comparison, and hopefully this will help anyone looking to make heads or tails of the two new technologies.
As always, it’s not about which is better, but which is best for one’s needs.
Jack
Those who didn’t attend both media events this year can’t really have an opinion on this subject at this point… Sure enough, mathematical formulas, electrical theories and numbers can be widely discussed here, but until end users get those tools in their hands and compare them side by side, it’s very hard to make a final decision on which system is better.
I was present at both events, and what struck me is how the Milwaukee M18 10″ miter saw struggled to cut through some pieces of hardwood compared to the Dewalt Flexvolt 12″ miter saw that just zipped through much larger pieces. From what I’ve seen, the Milwaukee cordless mitersaw felt like a cordless tool with some obvious limitations where on the other hand, the Dewalt Flexvolt mitersaw behaved exactly like a 110v corded mitersaw.
Don’t forget at the Dewalt media event, they used Milwaukee’s 5.0Ah XC packs (10 cells) on the Milwaukee tools against their Flexvolt tools equipped with 6.0Ah Flexvolt battery (15 cells). We can’t blame Dewalt because the Milwaukee 9.0Ah pack is not out yet, but it’s not an entirely fair comparison either. I remember from last year Milwaukee media event that their 9.0Ah pack provided a lot more juice, especially on the M18 FUEL circ saw. I’m sure the gap in performances between the Flexvolt tools and the M18 FUEL tools would be much less if they were using 9.0Ah batteries. Unfortunately, we won’t get a final answer to this until the Flexvolt line of tools, and the Milwaukee 9.0Ah battery pack are out on the market for all to buy.
I also believe that the apparent extra power from the Dewalt Flexvolt line of tools comes from the specs of the tools themselves. For instance, the Dewalt Flexvolt circ saw turns at 5800 rpm, when the Milwaukee M18 FUEL 7 1/4″ circ saw runs at 5000 rpm. That 800 rpm difference still makes a huge difference in the performances. Same applies to the Flexvolt right angle drill which turns at 300 more rpm than the M18 FUEL Super Hawg (1250 rpm vs 950 rpm). All those extra RPM certainly comes at a cost on runtime, but when compared side by side, the faster tool will always win and look so much better.
From what I’ve seen at this point and could experiment myself playing with the tools, I tend to believe the Dewalt Flexvolt system has more raw power on the surface, but this extra power will most likely cost you some runtime capacity, thus asking for more battery changes during a normal day of work. For some workers, this can be a huge issue, but not for others. I also have the impression that Milwaukee designed their tools around compromises to stay true to the 3 conditions they want into each of their power hungry tools :
1. Same power as existing electrical tools (or more powerful)
2. One battery change per day for normal use
3. Same battery system across the whole range of cordless tools
I’m sure the choice of the speed at which the blades and the drill bits are turning is deeply influenced by those 3 conditions above. Now the big question is to assess which compromise do you prefer? Do you want more power and work faster at the cost of changing batteries 2, 3 or 4 times a day? Or you would rather change batteries once at lunch time but work a little slower? I think it’s pretty much where all this is going.
I think carpenters and trim installers looking for a cordless platform will be much better served by the Dewalt Flexvolt system when it becomes available. On the other hand, Milwaukee’s M18 cordless platform is still by far the best offering for anyone working in Milwaukee’s core business (electrical, plumbing, HVAC, MRO, concrete workers).
All that being said, the market will decide which products will make it, and which ones will fail. I wouldn’t be surprised if contractors decide to buy both platforms for the best they have to offer. Sure, it costs more to keep 2 different battery platforms from 2 different manufacturers, but what is the real total cost to owe the best of the best? Barely a battery charger and 2 batteries, right? In either brands, you can get those for about 300$ ish. Why struggle to choose a brand over another when 300$ more can buy you the best of each of them?
Just my 0.02$
Micah
I agree that the Dewalt 60 V system has a little more punch. But I have been an electrician for 18 years and I have broken lots of tools. Lots of them were the Dewalt. And even today I see many other apprentices and young electricians buying the world and being upset because they smoked their cordless. Nobody likes working for tools.
Corey
Seems to me to he apples and oranges given the lack of a fuel m54 lineup. I’m a 20v adapter myself, and I’llbe the first to give credence to specific m18s such as the hole hawg, but the real interest to me in this “race” is purely in dewalts execution of a competent corded replacement platform flexvolt is supposed to be. 9ah batteries are a phenomenal step up in their own rights, I still have fresh memories of my xrp stem packs, but truly I believe that flexvolt is standing on a clear playing field right now poised to successfully or underwhelming demonstrate it’s effectiveness and worth in the field.
Rich
I’m interested to see if Dewalt batteries can actually hold up, considering the way they built the 36 volts and how they couldn’t take hot climates or cold climates. But I imagine there’s guys in Georgia that still love there 36 volts?
Chris Smith
My business partner & I are definite Red vs. Yellow!! I always bash Dewalt, just because I can. They both make great tools!! My biggest problem with Dewalt is; it is Almost a Certain that New Tools means something in the system is changing!! Once you’re invested, you not only have to purchase the new tool but additional items to keep everything working together!! Look at the storage systems!!! Completely ridiculous how many different systems, and they are not compatible with each other!!
Stuart mentioned Milwaukee’s M12 & M18 not compatible….
Bad example!!!
Yellow has:
12
20vMax(18)
40v
Now FlexVolt (60)
How many work together!!
I am not a wealthy person, & I have a LOT invested in my tool arsenal!! New items being compatible is a HUGE Plus !!!!
Go Team Red!!!
By the way,,,,. I have put my M12 Fuel tools against Dewalt “20V-Max” (18)…. on multiple occasions; definitely did not win them all, but keeps me smiling at how close the match-up is!!!!
Chris
jaytkif
I think Milwaukee is going to be playing catch up for a bit here. I agree with the post, the FlexVolt system would seem to benefit more users than the high demand M18 batteries will. Far more customers will be interested in a cordless table saw, full size miter saw, and corded level powered circular saw, than in a super hawg. I’m not cutting that tool down, it’s a great performer, but geared for a very specific group of purchasers.
That said, Milwaukee still has added some great products to its line, and that’s a plus. As an M18 user, I am still interested in some of their new offerings, especially the 10″ miter saw.
I think it could be viewed this way, Milwaukee’s new innovations are probably targeted primarily to M18 users. FlexVolt, starting with core tools, are marketed to a wide variety of consumers, even DIY users. With FlexVolt coming out, Milwaukee’s new tools are probably limited even more to existing users, or specific trades.
One caveat, I think Milwaukee needs to be careful with any questionable claims they put out while playing defense. That’s quite honestly the only thing that can truly hurt them. They sell high quality tools to serious users, and have been an industry leader in cordless tool technology. That competitive position can’t change. Having excellent performing 18 volt tools won’t hurt them, even if FlexVolt may have some advantages. Milwaukee needs to focus on the benefits of their system as opposed to the pitfalls of the DeWalt, until they can engineer their answer to the problem. Still, Milwaukee and DeWalt make great tools, and buying either will get the job done quickly.
Mr. Creek
I asked a question a year and a half back, in which you did a post on and referenced a few times in other post. What is the theoretical limit of amp hours?
One thing no one has discussed, when Dewalt comes out with their 9.0 amp battery on the new cells they will still be in their infancy. If Moore’s law stands true, Dewalt will have 18 amp Flexvolt in a few years. I don’t see how any other tool company can have that much potential in their battery packs assuming they keep to the same size and weight restrictions. Of course any OEM can launch a 18 amp battery now, if the battery was 8 inches thick and twice the weight.
Furthermore, Dewalt or their parent company have an ironclad patent on flexvolt technology in respect to it takes a physical action to switch it to 60v. So it will be 7 years before any tool company can even try to compete. Even if Milwaukee or any other company came up with a 18 amp battery that could switch to 60v they could not distribute the battery easily, as the FAA classifies lithium batteries with a certain power output as a class 9 hazard and cannot be put on planes, even cargo planes so Amazon and the like will have to send batteries and combo kits via ground transportation. But because Dewalt’s patent that the volt switching is a physical action and they are 20v natively they get around the FAA’s regulation. Looks like Milwaukee and others will have to: Increase size and weight of their batteries substantially; Or start adding up to 4 battery slots on high demand tools, Or switch to one of the newer battery technologies that is extremely cost prohibitive; and not fully vetted; Or flood the market with new tools of the same quality for 30% less money; Or wait years for the patent to expire.
P.S. Dewalt we need a pole saw, fan, and a Bluetooth tough system vacuum that works with a Bluetooth flexvolt saw, so the vacuum automatically turns on when we cut.
Doresoom
I think there’s a problem with your reasoning here: “Dewalt will have 18 amp Flexvolt in a few years. I don’t see how any other tool company can have that much potential in their battery packs assuming they keep to the same size and weight restrictions.”
DeWalt’s highest capacity planned FlexVolt is 9Ah for the 20V MAX setting, not 9AH for the 60V MAX configuration – that one will only be 3Ah for 60V. That’s not any higher than Milwaukee’s 9Ah High Demand battery. By your forecasting, DeWalt will eventually end up at 20V MAX 18Ah (60V MAX 6Ah), which is entirely possible in the future, but that doesn’t exclude other manufacturers from having an 18V 18Ah battery either.
Power output is power output – switching higher voltage for lower current doesn’t change power output. Power = Voltage*Current. I’m not aware of any FAA regulations on battery transport, but if it’s measured in watts, the FlexVolt is actually higher power output than the 9Ah High Demand, from the specs that Stuart listed.
So the only advantage DeWalt will have is lower current draw requirements, since they offer the 60V option. That’s still a big advantage, but it’s not a magical Mary Poppin’s purse of battery cells like you’re making it sound.
Nathan
not exactly. in the motor while power is voltage x current, the higher that current the more heat build up occurs. Also magnetic strength in the coils is a function of voltage. SO there are times when you need the voltage to get the torque out of the motor. As it’s the voltage in the coil feed that provides the magnetic strength to create the torque in the shaft.
So yes you need voltage to get torque. Keeping in mind that power is also torque x rpm on the mechanical end of the system.
Now that doesn’t mean you can’t get that line voltage in the tool – you could by putting transformer coils in the tool to up the line voltage out of the battery – that adds weight too and line loss. Neither of which is good.
converserly you can trade out RPMs of shaft speed with more gear ratio to create torque
now to that other question you are right there is not an FAA regulation related to shipping of Lithium batteries. It’s a DOT regulation. Splitting hairs I know since the FAA is part of the DOT but if you are looking there is such a regulation out there.
As such – the DOT limits lithium battery shipments to some Watt capacity – I forget the number – from AIr carriers. IE after a certain point they have to be shipped via ground transport. It’s a relatively new rule thanks to some aircraft that caught fire.
Past that limit – the package has to be declared as HAZ- MAT and that has categories. There is only next day over night company that happens to have a DOT exemption allowing air freight shipment of said Lithium batteries. IIRC 2 – of just about any18V 3Ah rated power tool battery surpasses this limit.
Jon
There is a limit on transporting lithium batteries on airplanes, however DeWalt has been very clever and gotten around it.
The limit is 100 watt hours maximum PER BATTERY. In other words you can transport hundreds of 99 watt hour batteries on the same airplane, but you cannot transport a single 101 watt hour battery on an airplane.
How can they ship their 108 watt hour Flexvolt packs? The answer lies in the same technology which switches the battery from series to parallel for 60v and 20v operation.
You see, the three sets of 5 cells inside the pack aren’t actually wired together directly like in typical battery packs. Instead they are only “connected” once the pack is attached to a tool (which determines if they connect in series or parallel, hence delivering 20 or 60 volts).
Thus these battery packs ship legally as if they are three separate 36 watt hour packs instead of one big 108 watt pack…. Pretty clever!
Mr. Creek
Thanks for your reply to my comment, to clear things up, yes you are correct. In several years other OEM can have an 18v 18 amp battery, and yes they can have a 60v 6 amp battery, but not both that runs across platforms. And not one that can be air shipped. Read the Flexvolt patent held by Stanley Black and Decker, it about 120 pages of technical legal jargon. Geeks like me find that stuff fascinating, most people would be fast asleep by page 7.
davidaa1
Isn’t moore’s law about the number of transistors per sq in doubling at a steady rate? Besides, batteries stayed pretty much the same (since the eighteen hundreds) up until pretty recently.
Mr. Creek
YES it is! However: there are many things that track with it. Great catch. At one point mathematicians tried to tricect an angle with a straight edge and a compass. We know now that it can not be done, manually, but what was learned in the process changed manufacturing for centuries. Moore’s law does refer to transistors and how they double production every 18 months. However, lithium batteries follow the same graph slash “limits”. Or if it makes it easier to understand physics and economic math are basically the same, except they use different symbols for notation. Basically: Moore’s law applies to other aspects of technology, oddly enough some aspects track on a 1:1 ratio, lithium batteries are one of those examples. Technically, it’s called a derivative.
TJC
Technically it’s called a non-sequitur.
Moore’s Law states that the density of semiconductors increases so that the number of transistors on a chip doubles approximately every two years. That’s it. It’s not about batteries, it’s not about the stock market, it’s not even directly about CPU performance.
Moore’s Law has been bastardized to include anything that goes up over time, irrespective of it’s connection to semiconductors, and even irrespective of the rate of increase. If it makes you happy to include battery development in that category, go ahead, however rechargeable battery technology has grown VERY slowly over the past 40 years. There have been a few small jumps in performance, but you’d be hard pressed to come up with any graph that shows a consistent rate of increase anywhere near doubling every two years.
Doug
Stuart,
Would you please cite a source for this statement: “Going from 2.0Ah to 3.0Ah, in regard to the battery cell size most brands use in their 18V-class battery packs, results in a significant and disproportionate decrease in performance potential. ”
Sounds counterintuitive, thanks in advance.
Doresoom
He’s referring to discharge rates of the higher capacity cells. Battery cell manufacturers are trading higher capacity for lower current discharge rates in the same cell footprint.
Jon
He is talking about the cell’s themselves and referring to their specs on paper, specifically maximum current output. What he is saying is that cells with a 3.0Ah capacity are “rated” for a lower maximum current output than 2.0Ah capacity cells.
The fact is it doesn’t matter in practice because the 3.0Ah capacity cells are still rated for a higher output current than any of today’s cordless tools can draw from a 10 cell battery, plus that current rating will only improve over time.
They may not have enough maximum current output rating to be used in a 5S1P configuration (a compact battery with only 5 cells), but so far they aren’t being used for that size of battery, they are only used in regular sized 10 cell packs (and upcoming 15 cell packs)
The perceived problem by Stuart is that when you run the cells closer to their maximum current rating they create more heat which is bad for batteries. In practice though it’s not an issue because a larger capacity battery tends to run cooler under the same sized load – the maximum current rating per cell is only part of the equation.
Stuart is also saying that DeWalt has an edge going forward because they have built their 6.0Ah (and soon 9.0Ah) packs with physically larger and heavier cells than everyone else. That is true because when battery chemistry improves so that the competitions cells have higher current ratings, then DeWalt’s cells will have improved by even more. Also it will always be cheaper to make 20700 cells with the same capacity and rating as 18650 cells so in the meantime DeWalt also will make more money on batteries and/or have lower priced batteries which will win them market share from cost-sensitive consumers.
DeWalt really has the competition in a corner right now – other companies will have to either adopt the larger 20700 cells themselves or switch to higher voltage tools in order to compete. The trouble is that DeWalt has patented the idea of the same battery operating at different voltages in different tools which means competitors can only release higher voltage tools with an all new totally separate higher voltage battery.
DeWalt will be the only company with “backwards compatibility” to lower voltage tools until their patents expire.
Matt J
Well it seems like Milwaukee isn’t a fan of being on the wrong side of their “aggressive innovation” strategy.
But to me it’s pretty straightforward: some tools you’ll use all day, so you’ll prefer some balance between lightweight and runtime, this area is largely unaffected by both the HD and flex. Others you’ll use for shorter periods but you need them to go hard when called for, not particularly longer. Here flex seems to have all the eggs in their basket. Milwaukee’s HD just seems to try to appeal to both sides, but a jack of all trades is a master of none.
It’ll be interesting to see if Milwaukee bites the bullet and comes up with their own semi interchangeable system like flex or if they dare to bite the bullet and cause the biggest platform controversy since the infamous dewalt 18-20v switch.
Matt J
Whoops, one bullet being a follower and the other deserting their users
Mike
Milwaukee and DeWALT are two brands of cordless tools that I have yet to find inciting enough to actually purchase(as opposed to Panasonic, Metabo, Bosch, Makita and a few others that I do own) so I say this from a balanced bias point, about as objective as you’ll find:
the DeWALT 18v to 20v relaunch, admittedly frustrating and somewhat mathematically disingenuous(the “20v” label at least) was more than just marketing.
DeWALT changed the voltage label and battery form factor but they also introduced many upgraded tool skins with stronger motors and other improvements. Also I’d point out that when a brand has such a giant share of a market, like DeWALT in the 18v days, any platform change, even an improved product line, will cause unavoidable resentment in end users who “invested”.
I’d argue that it was actually Milwaukee who was the bad actor. The V18 line was still in it’s infancy when they replaced it with the M18 and the “red lithium” bs.
This is a part of power tool life that Makita doesn’t get the credit they should. Certainly their batteries and compatibility with certain tools can be frustrating and complicated, but that is an unavoidable(more or less) cost for the ability to use the same platform on tools for a decade or so.
Part of the problem with all this is consumer vantage and unreasonable expectations. People are still influenced by 50 years of A/C tool markets when a good power tool could easily last for 35+ years as well as the early days of NiCad batteries(charge constantly, hope for the best).
The new lithium powered tools are different. You are really buying the batteries more than the tool. It’s a totally different paradigm. Lithium batteries have a finite lifespan as well as a fixed, or limited rather, number of charge cycles. Currently, even the best lithium batteries handled with the best practices can only be charged so many times, and can only live for a couple of years. Several years at the most. But no company is going to promote THAT fact.
Lance
I agree 100% that Makita deserves more credit with their LXT lineup, which I believe is the longest running platform of the currently available Li-Ion battery systems (the popular ones anyway).
Having said that, they surely could have handled the “STAR” protection and tool generation implementation a little more clearly.
WRT battery lifetime, keep in mind that cells don’t just fail one day and it’s game over. They have a long and gradual decline in capacity, determined mostly by time, depth and number of discharge cycles, environmental conditions etc.
I sold my three original 2008 Makita LXT 3Ah packs after owning them and using them lightly for roughly five years, and as far as I could tell their performance was still excellent. Granted, I was probably only charging them once every two weeks and treated them very well as a home handyman type, but they still lasted a long time. I only sold them because I bought a newer drill as a kit with two new batteries and I didn’t need five batteries laying around.
I almost got into the DeWalt line with their first Lithium pack design. So glad I didn’t! I’ll never forget when they dropped that line and went with the Makita style slide pack. Seeing them do that put a bad taste in my mouth, and because of that I’ll probably never own a DeWalt tool.
They just repeated that with their 40V OPE products… how many people bought into that stillborn platform?
ca
I’ve always been a DeWalt user and their selection of “core” tools, as you say, is phenomenal. FlexVolt is also very exciting. But, a smaller lineup versus Milwaukee has been and is a major con for DeWalt, and they don’t seem to be in any hurry to address the tool gap. Give me some nailers already!
Mike
It really comes down to price price price, you don’t know how many jobsites I’ve been on were they are using black and Decker or ryobi tools instead of Milwaukee or dewalt, I’ll ask them why they use them instead of pro model’s and they say price and there performance isn’t that far off from professional tools
Lance
“With higher current comes greater energy losses, due to internal resistance and heat. Heat is a battery cell’s biggest enemy, which is why power tool brands go to great lengths to design packs that run as cool as possible.”
Remember, as far as battery pack heat goes, power is power and is distributed evenly amongst the cells. This means a 15 cell pack putting out 150W is pulling 10W from each cell, regardless whether they are wired in parallel, series, or some combination.
This means both platforms stress their cells an equal amount for a given power output. What happens after the battery is another story.
Also, the DeWalt FlexVolt 9Ah packs should not be any better off than the Milwaukee High Demand 9Ah packs from a power output standpoint. Both will use 15 x 18650 3000mAh cells as far as I can tell. The only part of the system that could be an issue is the terminals; Milwaukee’s battery terminals will have more current flowing through them so will need to be appropriately designed.
I wonder about the long term reliability of the mechanical switches inside the FlexVolt packs. I’m sure they are sealed well from the elements (they better be, anyway), but I’ve had enough trouble with automotive relays in my time to be slightly wary of high current mechanical switches.
Both systems look interesting, and I don’t own either Milwaukee 18V or DeWalt 20V tools so the winner doesn’t really concern me. Competition improves the breed!
jtr165
From my understanding; there is no ‘switch’ for 60v FV vs. 20v FV operation from an FV battery. The batteries have 2 sets of terminals, 60v tools contact one set, 20v the other, so there is no way to ‘accidentally’ push 60v to a 20v tool and vice versa, nor any way for a physical switch to malfunction.
There is some sort of logic board that handles the rest from what I’ve read, but the physical switching is controlled by the terminal location of the tools attached.
I could be wrong, though. This is just lifted from some various forums iirc.
Lance
Stuart’s earlier article about the FlexVolt system indicated there were mechanical switches involved.
jtr165
understood; the system was explained a bit further in the comments of that article:
“Stuart says
June 22, 2016 at 9:47 am
My understanding is that the switch is in the form of switchable contacts that essentially rewire the batteries when attached to a 60V Max tool.
I asked about hot and cold stability (they said it should operate flawlessly regarding of environmental temperatures), and have a few more questions for the product manager.”
This is in line with a few other write ups and youtube vids around. Still all rumors at this point, as it doesn’t look like anyone got a direct answer form Dewalt.
It’s more an argument of definitions, though. There definitely is a ‘switch’, it’s just looking like the switch is an action when attaching the battery to different tools. A pretty good fail safe, if true.
Jon
DeWalt packs are using 20700 cells, Milwaukee packs are using 18650 cells.
Drawing the same amount of power from a physically larger cell is less demanding with all other things equal.
Lance
Just read up on it. My bad. The 2/6Ah FlexVolt pack uses 2000mAh 18650 cells, and the 3/9Ah Flexvolt pack will use the new larger cells.
From what I can get off the net as of right now, the new cell format will actually be 21700. I found reference to both Samsung and Tesla/Panasonic introducing this new larger cell format soon.
It seems there was some confusion as to whether the new format would be 20700, 21700 or 22700, and it seems the middle 21700 size won.
So I stand corrected. If the 3/9Ah FlexVolt pack will use a larger format cell then yes, I would expect the potential for better power delivery under load and less cell heating.
Also, a 3000mAh 21700 cell will use older (cheaper to produce) chemistry. A cell of that size will, using the same chemistry as a 3000mAh 18650 cell, offer far greater capacity. So, just when all of the early adopters have sunk all their cash into the introductory 2/6Ah and 3/9Ah packs, they will come out with a 2.5/7.5Ah pack based on today’s proven (tomorrow’s old) 2500mAh 18650 cells, and a 4Ah/12Ah pack based on the inevitable (and probably already planned) 4000mAh 21700 cells.
You heard it here first! LOL
From a cost standpoint it’s probably a smart move. It allows a larger pack capacity based on older cell designs, since 2000mAh high draw 18650 cells have been out for a long time now and must be relatively cheap (used in 2/4Ah packs for many years now). And a SUPER easy upgrade to 2500mAh cells in the near future since those cells have been around as long as the 5Ah XR/XC packs have.
And applying those same chemistries to the larger 21700 cell format will yield even larger capacities without costing the companies more… I read that projected price increases for moving to the 21700 format from the 18650 format will be extremely small.
The real down side to all of this is these batteries will be very large and heavy. Not so much an issue for benchtop style tools, but probably a no-go for many hand tools.
Chris Fyfe
Having dissected both Milwaukee and DeWalt packs , gotta say I just plain don’t trust team yellow .
Chris
ca
Yeah, but they’re yellow…
Joren
Chris,
Can you elaborate on this? What are the substantial differences in the pack designs? Thanks!
Jay
Lenny
Flex Volt all the way. The potential is just huge (assuming they continue to expand the line). American innovation at its best! Did I forget to mention Milwaukee is a Chinese owned company?
Stuart
Milwaukee is owned by TTI, a publicly-owned company that happens to be HQed in China. Milwaukee Tool is HQed in the USA, where all (or nearly all) of their tool development is done.
ca
Ah yes, DeWalt discovered how to hook up battery cells in series instead of in parallel. Where would the world be without you yanks…
😉
Lenny
Discover no, capitalize yes.
Lance
From the DeWalt Wikipedia page:
“In 2002, DeWalt ceased all tool manufacturing in the USA and moved manufacturing to China, Mexico, Thailand, Japan and Korea.”
Lenny
Well that was 14 years ago! Back then Milwaukee was not a Chinese owned company either. Plus mfg in China is a lot different than being headquartered in China.
Labeda
From the same page…
“As of 2015, DeWalt now has seven manufacturing facilities building DEWALT branded products in the USA: New Britain, CT, Hampstead, MD, Shelbyville, KY, Greenfield, IN, Cheraw, SC, Charlotte, NC, and Jackson, TN.”
Your point?
Oh and by the way, the Hampstead facility never closed. Wiki would be incorrect. That is their powder metal gear plant. Something that can’t be done outside the US easily.
Both companies are global and being global make global parts. One just happens to be trading their stocks on the US market and the other in Hong Kong.
Lance
If the parts are all imported, it’s basically an imported tool. Don’t fool yourself into thinking these tools are screwed together in the US for the sake of putting people to work, it’s for the sake of being able to say “Made in the USA” on the box. Oh, “With global materials” in fine print.
I’m not saying it’s a bad thing to employ people here, not even close! All I’m saying is, don’t think you’re getting an American made tool. To say that one is superior based on where it is assembled would be foolish.
I’m all for local manufacturing, I got displaced twice in 2007-2009 due to layoffs and plant closures. It sucks watching jobs go overseas, trust me on that. Just don’t get too caught up in marketing. Keep your eyes on what matters, the tools inside the box.
Dacan
An article on Dewalt isnt complete until some ignorant misinformed person claims they are this special holy USA company.
Andrew
The Milwaukee 9.0 high demand should be able to deliver 1600 watts to the motor. 100 amps at about 16 volts. The cells they use are good for this peak output for 10 second bursts throughout its discharge, which covers most use. Even though they are rated at 15A per cell, they perform well with much higher peaks.
Consider your starter motor runs at about 8-10 volts and 300-500 amps. High amperage for short distances isn’t that big of a deal.
Also consider wanting 30a per 2.0Ah cell continuous rating means you want a battery you can run dead in 3 minutes. Common use instead has a few peaks and a lot more lower power use.
The Flexvolt 2.0 battery is good for slightly more peak power and slightly lower temperatures at any significant draw. Most users might find that they don’t hit these limits though and instead just want more capacity.
The Flexvolt 3.0, a larger and more expensive battery, will outperform everything. It’s the only option for people who need the most power at any weight and cost.
Farid
Stuart,
Maybe you mentioned this this before, but if the FlexVolt batteries are automatically configured (series Vs. parallel) based on which tool they are plugged in and contact configuration, then that means that the 20V tools were designed with the FlexVolt system in mind from the beginning. That means the Flexvolt concept has been around for a while.
Interesting!
jtr165
I haven’t held a flexvolt battery let, but if you look at the pictures, I don’t think that the 20v system was ‘designed with this in mind’, it was more the Flexvolt batteries were purposely designed around the existing 20v platform’s connection…
It looks like there are 2 sets of ‘slides’ on the FV batteries…the upper connection matches the 20v line…the fatter lower portion slides into FV tools; like FV tools have a slightly larger and deeper ‘shoe’ for the batteries.
I could be wrong, as I’m just guessing…but a couple close ups make this seem possible.
Logan
I used that grinder you’re talking about. It 110% feels like a corded tool.
Ran it next to a brushless Makita 18V and just on spin up sounds infinitely stronger.
Burying the Dewalt, literally burying it, into angle iron didn’t slow it down. 18V grinders all lose speed on contact with material and stall with pressure.
It’s the first true cordless grinder, not just cordless cut-off tool. These 60V tools are game changers.
jtr165
That’s great to hear. Honestly, as far as what’s announced, that is the only FV tool I’m looking to buy right away. I’ve only recently got into some metal working to go along with some furniture builds and that sort of thing. I could get a corded grinder now, but it’s not something I need immediately. The carbide scraper pads for oscillators are enough to get by with for the limited work i’ve been doing.
The rest of the FV stuff announced I either don’t need because I already have decent enough versions for my use, or need them like last year. I have to get an SDS drill soon, as well as really need a decent blower (the 20v XR blower is fine for my property size)…and I’d rather not wait until the end of this year or into next. Neither of those have been officially announced for the US yet. Europe gets an SDS max FV hammer, and there were strong rumors of FV OPE by next spring, but i’ve held off on these 2 tools for too long as is.
but that grinder has been on my radar as the first step into the FV line. Glad to hear it’s pretty nice.
Logan
The brake isn’t as quick as the Makita, and I believe I was told the cost would be around $300. Not sure whether that was kit or bare tool.
I think it had a paddle switch, don’t recall a lock being present or missing, though I can easily see the danger in a toggle or lock on switch on a cordless grinder.
ca
Sounds great. I wish they’d make a 4.5″ paddle grip. And put a trigger lock on this one.
Mike
First? What are Metabo 36v brushless grinders called in your world? Even with nearly twice the voltage, these new DeWALT grinders are unlikely to be better than Metabo’s best offerings. And durability, an important feature in grinders especially, will clearly be superior with Metabo, since they use better components and materials(and design) across the board.
Mike
You can twist all you want but TTI is a Chinese owned company, don’t give me they have a headquarters in the USA, Toyota,Honda, Nissan and pretty much every car company on the planet just like Chrysler isn’t a American car company it’s owned by Fiat a Italian car company also another huge use to be American owned Anheiser Busch now owned by U-Bev a European company so you can spin all you want I’ll continue to support a American company Dewalt
Stuart
I’m not twisting anything, I’m correcting inaccuracies. Facts are facts, opinions are opinions.
Mikwaukee Tool is based here in the USA. Everything they’ve done in recent years was under TTI ownership. TTI is a publicly held Chinese-based company.
These are facts.
Saying that Milwaukee is a Chinese company implies they are based in China, but they are not.
Joe G
Both companies manufacture the majority of their stuff abroad, whether it be China (most common), Brazil, or Mexico.
Neither one could be described as solely an “American” company.
Nathan
I’ve always categorized it by tax base and profit location.
Toyota – makes some stuff here but in the end they pay corporate taxes in Japan – and their main shareholders happen to be there. so made in part here – profits and major taxes there.
milwaukee could be stated the same way. design stuff here but their corporate masters take their profits, pay taxes elsewhere.
Ford on the other hand is a US company – even when they sell you a car with engines and transmissions made in Brazil and etc – they pay US corporate taxes and their major shareholders are here too.
Dewalt (SBD could easily be argued the same way.
Now yes I’m not trying to say there aren’t shareholders of Toyota that are American – just that toyota as a company pays it main taxes to Japan.
now currently todate I’ve not picked up a Milwaukee tool or device that doesn’t say made in China or otherwise.
But I can get some Dewalt stuff that is made in USA – that does help sway the point balance a bit. For me – politically. Doesn’t mean Milwaukee doesn’t make a quality tool. But so far I’m willing to buy the DeWalt product instead
uhm can we get back to the physics now?
Mike
IIRC, tti is a publicly traded company on the HONG KONG stock exchange. Hong Kong is “Chinese” culturally, broadly speaking, and the island is populated with Han ethnic types as the majority, much like mainland China. But politically, militarily, legally, and historically, Hong Kong is a (pseudo)distinct entity from the PRC. The ultimate reason for this distinction is the USA, specifically our nuclear arsenal, our confirmed willingness to deploy nuclear technologies for warfare purposes, and our treaties, agreements, and commitments to “protect” Hong Kong. Remove the USA from the equation and mainland China would immediately, in fact instantaneously, annex/incorporate/conquer Hong Kong.
When the phrase or idea “Chinese-owned company” gets tossed around it presumably means ‘Chinese Central Government/Communist Party’ owned. Even though the PRC is not totally authoritarian Communist(they are best categorized as state-capitalist-as is the USA, though in a distinctly different manifestation)…China’s central government still plays an absolutely gigantic role domestically and internationally. By contrast, Hong Kong is arguably the MOST “capitalist” region/quasi-state in the industrialized world. As far as tti, their ownership presumably includes the usual suspects for a publicly traded conglomerate of their size. Examples would include: other corporations, especially holding companies, investment groups and banks, sovereign wealth funds, blue-blooded European families, and Saudi mobsters-oops, I meant to say Saudi “Royals”. And so on and so on.
Andrew
I’m still not buying it. Yes, it’s a little more powerful, but not being able to use 20v batteries on the new tools is too big a deal for me. Let’s say Milwaukee copied this with their own 54V flex system. I wouldn’t buy it because. I may buy a 9.0 battery when it comes out for my two most high draw tools, the brushless grinder and the brushless rotary hammer. But when I use up the 9.0 battery, I can pop on my 5.0 while it charges.
For even higher draw stuff, the 9.0 batteries just won’t cut it. I’ll use my 7″ grinder at max load for an hour straight with a cup wheel to take coatings off a small concrete room. Even the FV grinder won’t hold up to that without about 6 batteries.
jtr165
For me it’s a specific tool kind of thing. I’m in no need or hurry to upgrade any of my existing 20v tools, and the cordless tools i’d love to get soon aren’t yet available in FV format.
But, with that said, I do find the FV platform more appealing over just a completely different product brand because of the battery backwards compatibility. It’s not a huge incentive, but more than jumping ship.
Either way, though. My interest in FV is more for NEW cordless tools, not improved models. I don’t care about improved recip and circ saws, my current tools are fine for my needs. I’d rather see more things like cordless shop vacs (not the little thing they offer), routers, sanders, surface planer? To each, their own, though.
RX9
At this point in the market, it appears that most manufacturers have settled on the 10.8/12V (Three 18650’s in series) and 18/20V (Five 18650’s in series) standards for small and midsize tools. Still up in the air is the market sweet spot for heavy tools and small OPE (outdoor power equipment). Most manufacturers seem to have settled on 36/40V as the standard, but there are a few higher voltage systems out there, including:
DeWalt Flexvolt 60 and120V
EGO 56V
GreenWorks/Kobalt 80V
Although brushless motors can bring 18/20V systems close to parity with corded electric performance, it looks like 36/40V is what it takes to actually get there.
Parity with small gas motors is another question entirely, and while 36/40V is close enough to compete, it seems that the 80V mark is what it takes to genuinely match small gas motor (25-35cc) performance. The problem with 80V and above is that you’re looking at some mighty hefty batteries if you want more than 2AH capacity.
SteveW
FlexVolt is a game changer. The electronics to do it cost less than a buck in the battery pack. It saves more than it costs in the wiring and controls to deliver higher power within the tool. Out of the box thinking and true innovation delivering more for less. I just bought my first DeWalt cordless tool and am looking forward to many more. I hadn’t given it much thought till some FlexVolt showed up at my local HomeDepot.
Lynyrd
While the conversation has been mostly around Battery performance.
I would like to know more about the 120V MAX* AC power adapter that comes with the FLEXVOLT™ 12″ 120V* MAX DOUBLE BEVEL COMPOUND SLIDING MITER SAW. Will this adapter work with their Table Saw and other tools?
For me this is a a great advantage to have a large tool with the flexibility to go from 120v to Cordless. While not practical for drills, impact drivers, etc. for large tools this is great. Possibly future large tools such as Metal Band Saws, Chop Saws, Planers, and so on would benefit.
I currently use the Bosch 18v platform but am tired of waiting for an expanded tool lineup. My next purchase is a Sliding Miter Saw so when deciding between DeWalt or Milwaukee, this may sway the decsion of which platform to build on.
I sent this question to DeWalt but thought Stuart or others may know.
Thanks
Stuart
No, that adapter is only for the 120V Max FlexVolt tools.
An adapter for the smaller voltage tools is not in the works, but I got the feeling it was at least considered.
A smaller voltage adapter, such as 60V Max or 20V Max, requires a bigger voltage step, which brings with it engineering challenges that cannot be easily solved or accommodated.
Lynyrd
But it will work on the Flexvolt Table Saw? Thanks
ICT
makita has even better advantage than flex volt or Milwaukee because they have 20 cells instead of just 15… which adds up to more power less amp draw and better cooling than ether of the competitors….and you can stick your impact battery on it without buying a special battery …..or buy bigger for increased run-time…. i think makita has had it right all along and Milwaukee and dewalt are still not caught up…
philip
Makita should recall all there lithium tools that had no overheat control. .. they burn down your house or car. Last place in my book.
Rob
Stuart,
I hate that my comment is so late, but I just wanted to thank you for being the first person I’ve seen that didn’t buy into the talking point about not being able to use a 20v max battery on a 60v tool. You even used the same analogy that I use in the 12v vs 18v comment. I’m a master electrician in Alberta, (the owner, we do medium commercial; hotels, large grocery stores, etc), and it’s frustrating seeing so much in print that is completely false. A modern 18v system simply can’t compete with a modern 54v system, it’s not even arguable. It’s a joke that people would count backwards, but not forwards, compatability as a negative when compared to a battery tech that doesn’t offer EITHER. The solution to this, of course, is for Dewalt to transition ALL their batteries to flexvolt. They’re one 4ah flexvolt battery away from market control, and a smaller, 12/18/54v (flexvolt 2.0?) battery away from dictating the entire market for the next 20 years.
Anyway, thanks for your even playing field, feel free to email any time.
Stuart
You’re welcome, and thank you!
It’s definitely a difficult task to play judge, referee, or analyst. Dewalt and Milwaukee both believe their battery platform decisions to be the better one. Marketing language alone isn’t enough to educate readers enough to make informed purchasing decisions, and so I tried the best I could to filter reality out of hype.
I believe that Milwaukee is currently working on their next generation “leap,” but it’s unclear which direction they’re going in.
Peter Beatty
Hi,
Really useful summary – sorry so drag up so long after original post, but –
“Dewalt 20V Max plus FlexVolt, vs. Milwaukee M18? We’ll get back to that another time”
– did you ever get to that ? I’ve been using Bosch 12V tools for general home use for a while but they are struggling with some heavier landscaping work I’m doing now so in the market for a more powerful setup – usual twin-pack start point but I’d like to pick an ecosystem. Torn between Milwaukee and Dewalt and would value your opinion on the above question from your previous summary !
Both available near me, though Dewalt more visibly in stores. Milwaukee felt pretty good in hand last time I checked (I’ve fairly small hands) but otherwise no real preference. Future proofing probably most important. Looking at at twin pack combi / impact ste of either of your top two 2019 combi drill recommendations !
Cheers,
Pete
Stuart
The answer keeps changing, with both brands pretty much neck and neck.
Regarding landscaping tools, Milwuakee tools have a solid reputation, and they’ve been releasing new designs. Dewalt FlexVolt is well regarded, but they’re not releasing new tools at as steady a pace, and might not now that SBD is focusing more efforts on Craftsman outdoor tools.
If you’re buying into a new platform, you don’t save that much money when looking at a drill + impact driver combo kit, vs. going with an outdoor power tool kit or combo kit. For the outdoor tools, you’ll generally want bigger batteries than what you’d pair with a drill or impact. Dewalt does offer a FlexVolt drill + impact kit, but that’s a very specific combo.
I’d say choose your outdoor kit first, and then look at a drill and impact combo, or plan for the potential for two separate cordless platforms.
You might also want to look at EGO or Ryobi outdoor power tool lines.
It’s hard to pick a cordless power tool system, whether talking about power tools or outdoor power tools and equipment. If you want to choose one path for both, you’ll need to chart out your exact needs, and also your budget. Unfortunately, there is no “best” answer, and which is “best for you” depends on a lot of criteria, starting with: what types of tools do you need, how often will they be used, and how heavily will they be used?
Peter Beatty
Thanks for replying – I should perhaps have clarified that ‘landscaping’ for me means cutting / boring / screwing sleeper sized beams for beds etc and the odd bit of logging / splitting for firewood.
Tools wise that’d potentially be combi drill, impact driver, SCMS (in an ideal world) and a chainsaw. I already have a mitre saw, but it’s too small, corded and not sliding, an old Stihl chainsaw that’s very temperamental and my 10.8V Bosch combi drill / impact driver which are rather underpowered.
Just in case that makes anyone think ‘thats an easy choice’!
Jesse
A very interesting video. Just wondering if you had an article comparing Milwaukee’s High Output batteries to DeWALT’s FlexVolt batteries?
Stuart
In what way do you want to see them compared?
Jesse
Maybe about which one is more efficient and stays cooler?
I’m on several different platforms… Milwaukee, DeWalt, Ego, Ryobi and Ozito.
Your original article was published in 2016. Four years later, has your opinion changed with the addition of Milwaukee’s high out batteries?