What’s your stance on knockoff tools?
Shown above are fake NWS pliers by “SMU.” The way NWS styles their brand name, “SMU” is a near-perfect representation of NWS flipped upside down.
Features of the knock-off pliers include “plum blossom hole clamping nut and other parts,” and “eccentric and labor-saving design.”
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Personally, I avoid fake and knockoff tools. If I cannot afford a premium design, I buy something else or I save up.
The Viking Arm has been copied by many online marketplace brands. There are dozens of knock-offs for sale on Amazon, most for a fraction of the price. Are they any good? Most of the real people I’ve heard from said the knockoffs most certainly were not worth it and only incentivized them to buy the real thing.
I often hear about poor quality, poor functionality, non-existent customer service, and complaints about how online images of knockoff tools don’t accurately represent what will actually ship.
Woodpeckers’ 3″ pocket square is $50, and a knockoff on Amazon is $22. Looking at user reviews for the lookalike copy, there are complaints about markings not being accurate, and the heel not being square. Some reviewers mention a different design which has adjustment screws whereas the listing is for a one-piece tool similar to Woodpeckers’.
See Also: Knockoff Woodpeckers Tools are Getting Bad Reviews
Some SMU pliers copy the look and colors of NWS and others’ electrically-insulated pliers, but they don’t appear to advertise any high voltage protection. That could be dangerous. Who do you ask when the knockoff brand has no website or customer service?
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Knockoff tools are a headache. I steer clear.
What’s your take on fake or knockoff tools?
Mike (the other one)
In the mid-to-late 2000’s, Sears started selling knockoff Craftsman tools.
MichaelT
Oh for want of a like button…
PHS
It’s still the early 2000’s. We haven’t even reached the middle of the century yet.
Jeff R
If a company sells a knockoff that says a lot about the character of those running it. A knockoff is different from just a cheaper version with no deception. One thing I always go cheap on are HF angle grinders, just because they’re always used for really dirty jobs and I’d hate to ruin a good one. Other than that we’ve all learned out lessons with cheaper tools in one manner out another.
Mark
2000’s is 2000-2010. You are thinking of 21st century.
Kevin
The 2000s are between 2000 and 2999 you are thinking of the Aughts of the 21st century.
Waldon
Philip K Dick would call it PreCrime, no?
Too much fun!
IronWood
Well played.
Scott K
I would not touch knock off tools because I’d expect them to not work as expected or cause damage. I’d much rather buy a house brand tool or a lower priced brand’s offering. I think there’s an important difference between knock offs and budget tools.
There are also ways of getting higher end brand name tools to fit within a budget. I wanted a VDE screwdriver for a few tasks around the house. Felo makes a budget friendly VDE bit holder that saved me a ton compared to a set of individual drivers.
Stacey Jones
Which one is that? I found an insulated bit holder from Crescent. One of the very few things I bought at Lowes, which I generally despise…
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Crescent-Apex-Crescent-Apex-1-4-in-Hex-Drive-Isolated-Bit-Holder/1003097608
Jared
Here’s the Felo: https://toolguyd.com/felo-insulated-screwdriver-bit-holder/
I have two, even though I almost never use them where the insulation matters. Regardless of the insulation, they’re just awesome bit holders.
One of my favorite handle shapes and the bit holding magnet is super strong.
There’s a non-insulated version too. I can’t say why I bought two insulated ones when I don’t really need it.
Scott K
Yep- the handle is very comfortable to use and it holds bits very nicely. I mainly bought this for safely changing receptacles and light fixtures around the house- I always turn off breakers and test with a non contact voltage tester first but thought would add an extra layer of protection. Very affordable and it allows for lots of uses since 1/4” bits are so cheap.
Stacey Jones
If the knockoff is violating a patent that is still in force I won’t buy it. If the patent expired, or there is no patent, and the original is price gouging with exhorbitant prices, I will consider the knockoffs. In that case, the knockoff must cost significantly less, no 10% discount for instance. Generally, it would need to cost half or even less. I know price gouging is very subjective but something that costs over double an offshore offering and more than similar products made in the USA, definitely meets my criteria. I know for a fact that many pharmaceutical companies are price gouging, so we’ve plenty of CEO’s that are quite willing to do it! I have zero qualms about these people losing my business.
Stacey Jones
Oh and I would need to see 4.5+ Amazon ratings by a statistically significant number of raters to consider a knockoff too!
Jared
In the same vein, I remember the hubbub with Harbor Freight making pliers wrenches that resembled Knipex’s.
Patent protection is premised on encouraging innovation – e.g. the fear is that if the right to produce the product isn’t protected for a period of time, no one will innovate. However, patent protection isn’t unlimited because eventually you want the whole market to benefit from development (not create a bunch of monopolies).
With that in mind, plagiarism after the patent expires is actually in keeping with the whole concept of patent protection in the first place. I don’t have qualms about buying that type of “knockoff”.
I appreciate that making a copy that visually resembles a competitor’s product might also be seeking to benefit from the other company’s product reputation, not just the innovation itself.
Jesse
If knipex are a rusty red and husky wants to make me a black pair I’m gonna buy it regardless of parents. Screw the corporations, I just wanna look cool
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Dan
I’m curious as to why you have this opinion. Do you know much about patents? First, how do you determine that the patent is “still in force”?Also, how do you know there is a patent in the first place? And most importantly, how do you determine what the patent covers?
I ask all of this, because I’m a patent attorney. An none of that is even remotely straightforward (you can’t just rely on Google patents). And because 99% of the time (even more so in this space) the company that owns that patent describes it as covering something substantially more than it does.
Finally, why do you care? It’s not necessarily the case that a “knockoff” in this case would be of substantial lower quality. And while you could technically by liable for owning an infringing good, as a practical matter–no company would ever sue you.
Put differently, why should having a patent concern you at all? If you want to recognize first to market innovators–ok. But it shouldn’t matter that they have a patent. They put the same amount of work in regardless. And that also just rewards big companies that can afford patents. So let’s take that to the extreme—are you really just saying that you don’t buy knockoffs from big companies because they have the money for patents??
I’m not trying to be difficult here–I’m just genuinely curious. Because I think the average person has a totally different perception of patents than the reality. They don’t really reward innovation–they just reward folks that have the money to hire lawyers to get them. And they very very rarely cover an entire device. Usually it is just a specific feature or component (which can be designed around).
Stacey Jones
I’m no lawyer but my knowledge of patents is consistent with what I think you said. The patent seems to require some significant and non-existing improvement over the existing products. I never bother to check for patents. I always assume they have one if you don’t see a bunch of clones around and the product has been on the market quite a while. When the clones crop up, I figure the patents are gone. A new product without a patent? Interesting question. I would probably then still buy their product if they weren’t price gouging. But if the clones were significantly priced less or were better quality, I’d buy the clones. They made a poor business decision to not get a patent or have someone else produce their product in this case. Live & Learn. I don’t care whether a big or small company made the knockoff.
Jared
There seems to be an aversion to products that copy or “plagiarize” competitors that doesn’t track with the rationale underlying patent protection. Check out the comments to this post, for example:
https://toolguyd.com/harbor-freight-icon-pliers-wrench-knipex-imitation/
I don’t share that same attitude, but I’m curious about it too.
Maybe it’s just a misapprehension about why patent protection exists. E.g. it could come about because “copying” is perceived as bad in many other domains. You copy something without attribution in school and it’s plagiarizing, a comedian might “steal” a joke, a Chinese company might ignore patent protection entirely and copy something subject to an American patent and benefit form the innovation without the work that went into it.
In that sense, maybe it’s just a holdover from something that’s “bad” in other contexts.
On the other hand, maybe there’s a negative attitude towards copying that is independent of patent protection. It could even have preceded it and formed part of the grounds for why patent protection exists. Maybe I just “lost” my sense of why it’s bad after learning about how patent protection works – but that doesn’t make me “right”.
MM
I agree. I think fred said it well below, that if a company tries to make their product look exactly like someone else’s then it implies they have something they are trying to hide.
I don’t have a problem with copycat products which are based on some existing design so long as they don’t try to trick anyone with their branding. For example, the Benman branded pliers that Ct451 linked to further down the page. Those are obviously based on NWS’s pliers, but nobody is pretending to be NWS, they have their own, distinct, color scheme and it quite clearly says Benman on the handles.
Franco
I believe your earlier comment (Jared) about encouraging innovation is true. Also, to protect the person who came up with the idea and avoiding others taking credit (making money on someone else’s idea).
Companies invest big money into R&D and for every great idea that makes money there are hundreds that fail but still cost money to research.
Companies do need to make money for an idea that works to help pay for the research and work that went into that idea + plus all the expenses needed for what did not work. That is how incentivizing innovation works
SawStop would be one example, although I do not like the guy, he came up with the idea. Without a patent protecting that idea, within a year, every major brand would have had the same or similar design on their saws, without the “inventor” getting a chance to make money.
Patents help the inventors get credit and make money without being squashed out of the market by all that would take advantage of it.
I forget the name of it, but that wrench that had the circular spring cams that when squeezed would grab the bolt, was copied by Craftsman. They went to court and I forget the outcome, but know that the guys with the idea went out of business because of Craftsman…be it the cost of the lawyers to go against Craftsman or lost sales, I do not recall
The other Jake
I’ll buy knockoffs, especially if they really are good. But I do hate to see high quality, innovative stuff copied and sold cheaper by companies, that don’t care at all about the research and testing the the real guys put in.
Stacey Jones
I understand what you mean, but in a lot of cases, a HoneyDoer isn’t looking for a product that lasts through 50 years of constant use. In those cases lower quality at a lower price is acceptable. If the price of the original tool is 10x the knockoff, it may be cheaper to consider it disposable…
Adam
I get copying, but I thought the SMU was going to be a joke with how identical it looks. Sure enough, cheap as can be on Alibaba.
I suppose once they get dirty enough, maybe I wont notice them mixed in with the real deal.
Jesse
I’d assume you will notice when they break before getting dirty enough to blend in
Jared
No, I wouldn’t. The closest I’ve come is looking at listings for knockoff power tool batteries – but after a little research the marginal cost savings don’t seem worth the risk of unknown quality (never mind that testing and tear-downs often show the batteries don’t meet their advertised capacity – negating the cost savings altogether).
With things like those NWS pliers, what’s the point? They sure do resemble the real thing, but precision in manufacturing and high quality materials is what makes those pliers worth the premium. What are the odds the knockoff manufacturer builds to the same standards?
I spend more on premium tools for the performance benefit, not because they look good. In that context, a knockoff doesn’t give me the thing I’m after.
Scott K
Totally agree about batteries. That seems like an invitation to destroy a tool or cause serious harm to yourself. The savings can’t justify the cost of replacement.
TomD
The only place I’ll go on knockoffs for batteries is the adapters, which are never sold by “reputable companies” if you will – but they’re bog standard and often 3D printed, anyway.
Jared
Me too – I have a BUNCH of them. Not having any brand loyalty, I’ve got tools from at least ten different brands and platforms.
While I have brand-specific batteries for all the tools, I bought adapters as backups in case I run out. E.g. I have only a couple batteries each for Ridgid or Ryobi, but tons for Dewalt and Bosch. If I run out of juice, my adapters keep me going.
Scott
Nope – I don’t buy knockoffs, counterfeits. It’s theft from the original company.
Also, if a patent has expired and a company uses a name to try to trick and obfuscate their customers, as China does all the time (ie: SMU-NWS), I won’t buy, either.
Trying to deceive you gives you insite into their corporate culture and intentions.
(And yes, there are plenty of people that will excuse this, saying “all marketing contains exaggerations and lies”. Of course, it does, but that’s white-washing this kind of intentional fraud.)
Dishonest.
John Blair
For any tool safety related would he heck no.
For most tools the answer would be no.
I’m in the camp of only if a patent was expiring or there was extreme gouging. For example, remember when Fein oscillating tool was super expensive. I now own versions from Dewalt and Milwaukee. Both of them together cost less than Fein used to charge. I have a Festool domino, but I am waiting for the day the patent expires so I can get an 18/20v version from someone for half the price.
The only knock off tool I’ve considered recently is a knock off of the Woodpeckers Auto Line Drill Guide. It looks nice but its a tool I wouldn’t use very often and at over 300 dollars, I can’t imagine that I would buy it. There are knock offs that are literally 10% of the cost of Woodpeckers model. Its tempting given Amazon’s return policy, but so far I’ve resisted the urge to buy one.
Ty A Knot
I have heard lots about the woodpeckers Auto Line Drill Guide, and heard negative things about it. (Depending on which knockoff you buy). They are mostly plastic and not accurate at all. I would save up for a drill press at that point
Bonnie
Obvious knockoffs like these I’ll avoid, though you can’t always be sure when using a retailer like Amazon that uses shared-binning.
But it’s not always clear what’s a knockoff and what’s a re-badge/white-label tool, or the exact same tool that just got disqualified during QA and ended up being sold to someone else by that same factory.
KokoTheTalkingApe
To me, a “knock-off” is something that is intended to resemble a high-quality or well-known product, even if it doesn’t actually deceive a specific buyer. I’ll never, ever buy a knock-off, because the makers are stealing the reputation or familiarity of the original. I don’t care if it’s legal or not (and I’m a lawyer!)
That’s different from copying some technical feature of an original. If there isn’t any patent protection on it, or if it’s licensed, that can be totally legit. An example might be copying the principle of Knipex pliers-wrench, which I think a few makers have done. That could be fine, morally and legally.
But making a pliers-wrench to LOOK like a Knipex to gain an aura of quality or status is wrong, period.
mike
Those knock-off pliers are textbook trademark infringement. The offending company is clearly copying the look and feel of the original company which creates confusion in the marketplace. The viking arm is already a knock off of an existing clamp design so it is a stretch to say they have any kind of ownership of the design or the look and feel of the product.
Kalos
More a “trade dress” issue.
MM
No, I don’t buy knockoffs. As others have said that is stealing from the original IP. Honestly these look so close to the original NWS product that “counterfeit” seems to be a better word than knockoff. And this particular example happens to be dangerous. Those counterfeit pliers are surely not safety tested for working on live electricity yet they look nearly identical to tools which are, that has the potential to get someone hurt.
I don’t have a problem with companies making their own versions of products once the patents expire, or making similar products that work differently in order to get around patents. Those principles are both just as important as patent protection, and they drive innovation. There’s nothing wrong with someone making a cheaper version of another tool, just be honest and upfront about what it is rather than trying to pass it off as something else.
JoeM
I’m not sure I even have access to knockoffs. AliExpress/Alibaba is great for a lot of things, but tools are not among them. Accessories/precision parts? Maybe, and they gotta be really specialized to even show up on my radar for them. But most tools don’t seem worth it from the AliExpress/Alibaba route.
Beyond that… You have to be extremely careful, and specific, with what you mean by “Knock Off”… Harbor Freight (USA) and Princess Auto (Canada) can easily be said to carry almost nothing but knock-off products as house brands. Yet… I know from Princess Auto, that some of their worst products are still so well built that they’ll serve you for decades. Or, if you don’t need the thing you’re buying, for the thing it was designed for, they’re cheap enough to do the job without having to care about it lasting. They’re great for when you have to build what you buy into a project, rather than using the products to make the product.
Then there’s the SBD/TTI complication. They literally make exact copies of their highest quality products, in the livery of their other brands. So, buying a Craftsman Versastak is the same as buying a DeWALT TSTAK, but in Craftsman Livery. Lots of this goes on under SBD and TTI, and it’s not really a “Knock-Off” since you’re just getting brand matching.
Then there’s the Canada issue. Up here… Our stores that started here have “House Brands” that are their own, but have been contracted to be made by brands like SBD and TTI, intermixed. A Drill may be made by SBD after a DeWALT, but the matching Recip Saw is a TTI modeled after a Milwaukee. And that mix varies drastically. The original companies have the contracts for making these tools, money does get back to them… but you can only get these at specific Canadian stores. When you look at them, they scream “Knock-Off” but in use they just work like a full market brand. In some ways, some of these House Brands have become the Canadian edition of Craftsman, sentimentally. Mastercraft and MotoMaster both hold that position in the North here.
Now… if we’re talking a third-party company, making duplicates of tools they have absolutely no contract to make… I would argue there’s only that condition that constitutes a “Knock Off” here. And of those, I’m not sure I would even be capable of purchasing them. It’s far too easy, and efficient, to buy either Mastercraft to start, or DeWALT and the Full Market brands when I can invest.
I guess, in short, my answer is “No”… but if any of the above conditions are the case, my answer may well be “I already do.”
Steven Stroud
Yeah,so many people on here saying they wouldn’t buy fake or knock off tools etc,well I think that someone is lying because if they didn’t buy them why would manufactures even produce them,I guess it is like the porn industry,nobody watches it but it is multi billion dollar industry, must be magic I don’t know
dblcok
Like most things in life–I’d say it depends. Are we talking a power tool? Hell no. Screwdrivers, diagonal cutters, sockets, wrenches etc. Still probably not–the price differential is not going to be enough for it to matter for me. But if it is something that is already substantially overpriced to beginwith (i.e. Woodpeckers)–then hell yes. I’ll take my chances with a $20 chinese t-square over a $200 woodpeckers version. I’d say I have similar feelings about certain electronic equipment too, like oscilloscopes, logic analyzers, multimeters, etc. Most of the knockoff stuff is pretty good for that too.
TonyT
Any test equipment worth having isn’t a knockoff, for example, Rigol and Siglent are definitely not a knock offs of Tek, etc. (IIRC, Siglent, and maybe Rigol, made/make some of the lower end scopes for American manufacturers – very much the opposite of making knock-offs!)
Side note on scopes: at work, I picked GW Instek, which has worked out very well for us. If I needed a truly high end scope, I’d go with Rohde and Schwarz instead of Tek, Keysight, or LeCroy.
fred
If your main selling point is that you make your product look as close to identical to the original or Real McCoy – then that just screams out (IMO) that you have something to hide. If you are copying a well-regarded (perhaps now off-patent) tool with a lower priced but high-quality alternative – then why not be proud enough of your product to distinguish it for others with your own color scheme. In the world of pliers, when the Knipex plier wrenches came off patent quality copies – sometimes adding tweaks or possible improvements started appearing from manufactures like Gedore and Lenox. Those sorts of “copies” I’d be inclined to give a try. But knockoffs that are mostly meant to obfuscate and confuse the consumer as to the identity of the maker will always get a hard pass from me.
John E
No. The reason you are getting a cheaper tool is because someone is accepting substandard wages and substandard working conditions in order for that to happen. Conversely, someone else is losing a decent wage and decent working conditions every time you cheap out.
Stacey Jones
I don’t think that’s true any more. In a lot of cases the “American” brands are made in China and I’m hearing that it’s even the same factories too. Craftsman comes to mind…
Ct451
I don’t think anyone would confuse nws with smu. No one is getting tricked. The difference in price on its own is a dead giveaway. If they had the same name it would be a different story.
How about this? Would you call it a knockoff?:
https://products.benman-tools.com/en/hand-tools/pliers/pliers-water-pump-pliers/powergrip-combination-pliers-with-fulcrum-5230
Stacey Jones
Totally agree. I’m not fooled by these. Those pliers look awesome. I didn’t see USA pricing, so mo maybe they don’t ship to the USA. I’d guess the cost is probably similar to NWS.
MikeIT
I thought this was going to be about Harbor Freight tools and how some of their tools copy popular tools such as the Icon Pliers Wrench looks like the Knipex Pliers Wrench. This is much worse. I am only vaguely familiar with NWS pliers, mostly from seeing them here. If I saw the SMU pliers being sold for only a slightly less than the NWS pliers, I would think I was getting the genuine product for a great price. Since I am not that familiar with them I would probably be fooled by this product and possibly even risking my safety since I did not notice it was missing the high voltage protection. I am not a professional and I’m sure a pro would recognize them as knock offs and a pro would only buy tools from a reputable vendor but even professionals get fooled sometimes. I would not be surprised if these get blocked from being sold since there is clearly some trademark /copyright infringement issue here.
Maybe you should buy one and compare with the genuine pliers?
Also, would this be the same issue if it said ICON instead of SMU?
fred
HF at least seems to be moving away from brand names that IMO were meant to trick buyers into believing that their parentage or COO was something other than China. I’m thinking about Pittsburgh for mechanic’s tools or Chicago Electric for power tools. At least more recent brand names like Bauer (sounding Germanic) may not be as bad as some tools that I saw on Amazon branded “Werkzeug” with only Chinese heritage – no Germanic bloodlines.
I also find HF’s choice of the IKON brand name interesting. My first decent camera was a Zeiss Ikon Contax camera made prior to WWII passed along from my dad. Later when I was called a traitor to the Zeiss tradition when I switched to Leica instead of Nikon – I was sort of regaled by stories (perhaps apocryphal) that the Nikon brand name had been chosen by combining the N (as in Nippon) with the Ikon (as in Zeiss Ikon)
fred
HF Icon – not IKON – excuse my Freudian slip
MikeIT
I never knew that about the Nikon name origin. Way back when, I used to lust after a Contax RTS III. That was a sexy camera back in its day but I was merely a poor college student back then and had no hopes of ever getting one.
fred
Mine was a Contax II rangefinder camera. I believe that it was made in Jena sometime in the late 1930’s. I think that my dad acquired it around that time and passed it down to me in the early 1950’s. By the time of the RTS III – the camera was being made by Yashica in Japan. If I have it right, when the RTS series started Jena was till part of the GDR (East Germany) and their post war camera production included Exacta and Praktica but nothing from Zeiss. I guess that the RTS III was meant to compete with SLR cameras like the Nikon F100. My thought was that Zeiss and their lens/camera designs were always in the top tier of quality and innovation
MM
I’ve heard similar things about the name, but I think it worked slightly differently:
The Nikon company was originally “Nippon Kogaku Kogyo Kabushikigaisha”, or “Nikko” for short. If I remember right the company didn’t change its name to Nikon until the 1980’s. Prior to that there was already a tradition of sticking letters at the end of “Nikko” for their sub-brands: for example their camera lenses are branded “Nikkor”, I bet that -r at the end was inspired by the likes of Zeiss’s earlier Planar and Tessar or Leica’s Elmar. So there’s no doubt the “N” in Nikon came from “Nippon”. But I think what they stole from Zeiss Icon is just the n at the END of the word, not the “Iko” part from the front of it.
JR Ramos
That was a second-tier mistake…perhaps a Diabloan Slip. 🙂
Munklepunk
I don’t care. I’m not really sure what constitutes a knockoff anyway. Is everyone knocking off the first wrench or are they building on the design. Icon are blatant copies of snap on but they are still good tools and cheaper and easier to buy and warranty. Apple copies Samsung who copies Google who copies Samsung who copies Apple and we get amazing devices because of it and none of them invented the smart phone. Drillpro is a Chinese brand who makes a lot of really good quality woodpeckers lookalike for a lot less, are they knockoffs because they paint matched?
Rog
Nope.
John
Uh oh, I feel responsible for this post. I mentioned I bought some knockoffs on the other post for the NWS pliers on sale.
I do own the real Viking clamps, 2 of the them, bought over two years ago when Massca first brought them to the US. Those Viking clamps are incredible and worth the money because they actually do what they claim. The knockoff clamps are junk from anyone’s comments across the web.
Now the NWS knockoffs are 90% of the real thing but cheaper. I am guilty of buying those.
Wayne R.
The whole idea of a knock-off is a parasitic attachment to someone else’s work. Copies can be part of this category but not always, however these are significantly cosmetic copies so to me they’re fully parasitic.
Never ever.
Joatman
No…..Buy once, cry…….laughing at SMU! That’s comical! I laugh at all the crazy names of tool brands on Amazon. You can search cordless drills, or almost anything and see all kinds of crazy names. It fascinates me that people buy these. Even if what you’re searching for isn’t your niche, you would think that these weird name brands would tip you off. “Tegatok” and “Yougfin” tools? Lmao. No thanks
S
I don’t shop brand names. I shop quality. If the SMU lasts just as long and is half the price, I’ll absolutely use it. The part that makes me leery of the SMU example though is the direct knockoff in styling. If they were just their own design, I’m more apt to try them.
But for instance stepper bits, you bet I’m searching ebay/Amazon/harbor freight for the cheapest seller, usually around $15, instead of buying Milwaukee’s $57 stepper bit.
I know there’s going to be some functional differences, but I consider bits like that disposable/forgettable, and in all reality don’t cut that much worse. We’re talking maybe 15 seconds per hole longer…
Power tools, I’m absolutely looking for knockoffs and ‘fell off a truck’ deals. The only benefit to genuine is the warranty, which is little benefit at all.
I once tried going through proper channels, getting the warranty registered and all. One of my drills immediately ate it’s gearbox, and I sent it in for warranty replacement. Took 4 months. But I can’t just tell customers or my bills “sorry, I can’t work until I get my drill.”
So I had to buy a second drill, at full price, to use in the mean time. Where I could buy via eBay open box for half the price and take just as large of a gamble.
Geinsbelt
When I was in Egypt 20 or so years ago, there were street vendors selling ADIDOS shoes, hats, gym bags etc. with three stripes and all. I found them amusing but never purchased anything because I figured customs would seize it.
That’s what those pliers remind me of.
I wouldn’t buy tools that were obviously pretending to be something they’re not.
An imitation Rolex just for fun? Maybe…
Ray
I typically avoid knockoffs out of respect for the investment required to develop new tools. The only exceptions I’ve made are when the original manufacturer doesn’t make exactly what I want, like when Woodpeckers releases Imperial-only items. In those cases I’ve bought Veiko-branded metric tools from Banggood.
MFC
LOL! THIS IS REALLY A THING??? SMU NWS, LOL. WHAT? This is where it feels like it’s pointless to compete against countries that apparently don’t have stringent copyright laws. I mean, it’s bad enough when companies copy a design and integrate it into their own tools and market it like it’s some new feature, but this is above it all and basically a slap to the face coupled with being spit upon.
I might feel a little strongly about this, but come on people!
MFC
Sorry, didn’t answer the question. If the knock off was comparable to the real thing, yeah, you better believe I’d buy it. I know, this goes against my previous comment, but while I find it reprehensible for the company doing the manufacturing of the product, I find my duty isn’t to hold them accountable and is the unfortunate job of the legal department of the original. I’m just a consumer, so I consume and am happy to consume at a better price.
Bob Kovner
It all depends on the type of tool. Most copies of woodpecker tools are a much better value and still of high quality I have trouble agreeing to the price of the original as most of their tools are made from the same materials and the quality is as good. Same as some things such as the leatherman raptor. The original is almost indistinguishable from bvb the china versions so why pay 90. -100 dollars from leatherman and not buy the china version sans the leatherman name engraving that sells for 20 bucks on amazon? I have many anodized clamps and measuring tools from china all of which were a fraction of my woodpecker tools and as far as I’m concerned made as well and cost me a fraction.
mattd
This has basically been harbor freights whole bread and butter. The new icon pliers wrench and the bit socket that is basically a facom clone are only the latest example. If a company can become as successful as harborfreight has by doing this then I can’t really begrudge others to try the same thing.
JR Ramos
I’m in the “it depends” camp, too. I do like to respect IP and support those companies’ innovation and efforts, but there are times where that’s difficult to do. The Viking lift arms are a good example. The imposters out there come in a few flavors now and all of them are ultimately inferior to the Viking, but gosh dang the cost on the Viking is just sky high. I’m generally a bit snobby when it comes to tools and tend to go for high quality, but with this particular item there was just no way I would spend that much, so I picked up one of the better looking imposters, and y’know they’re not half bad. For what I have used and probably will ever use them for, they are absolutely suitable. That said, for just a few pennies more they could seriously improve them and give Viking an even bigger run for their money with that product.
Defining and drawing the lines between knockoff and counterfeit is important, IP aside. When something is counterfeit that’s totally not worth supporting and worth pursuing remedy (be it through amazon reviews, alerting a vendor to a problem, or legally for those who have standing to do so). Those SMA pliers…good gosh that’s a good laugh. Probably falling somewhere between knockoff and counterfeit. It’s enough to be willfully deceptive even though the majority of people aren’t going to be fooled by it.
1000V safety on pliers? Since it doesn’t advertise it and they aren’t labeled such, it’s not a safety issue. More importantly, that onus is ultimately on the purchaser (or his supervisors). You shouldn’t be working on that kind of juice without professional licensing and training (*and* experience/mentoring) and anyone who is suited to do so wouldn’t be swindled by these pliers. If joe homeowner thinks it’s the same and gets hurt, well…I mean that’s kind of his own fault, all around. Not so sound harsh about it but sometimes you can’t fix stupid and people generally do know when they are doing things they shouldn’t. Now if the pliers were advertising a rating that was false, like what happens with 90% of meter test leads out there in china-meter-land, that’s different.
Now consider an example of….say, a variable pitch tooth design on a hole saw or recip blade. Was it Starrett that first brought that out in the mid 90s? That’s an example where if there was a patent on it and some other outfit made the same or similar, yeah, I’d likely buy the knockoff despite the IP, as long as it was suitable quality for the purpose.
Anti-vibration cutouts in a table or circular saw blade? Sure, give it to me. Designs may be better or worse than the original, but a simple concept like that, I’m ok with other products picking up on that if they can.
Rounded corners on socket broaches? I don’t know if anyone ever patented that but it didn’t take too long for all of the asian manufacturers to implement that smart design change.
Tools are sometimes unique in the way that features and designs are often adopted by the masses (manufacturers). To be sure, a whole lot of innovators and companies have been injured (or disappeared entirely) after clones appeared for less money, and sometimes they had to deal with warranty claims/complaints on those same cloned products that they didn’t even make themselves. That’s bad. But sometimes it’s not so huge, maybe like the Viking example. If the clones are suitable for someone, ok, but if they need what Viking delivers and discover that a clone won’t give them what they need, then yeah they’ll end up at Viking all the same, out a few extra bucks for the experiment.
Another example are those body-haul webbing lifting straps. Very interesting and sad story for the OG company who brought those to market. Clones and illegal copies ate their lunch, hard. Now that’s wrong. That said, they were charging a lot more for their product than what they “should” have, and that made it easy for the masses to buy the copies, which for all intents and purposes were the same darn thing, or close enough to do the job admirably. No big concerns over the qualities of steel or machining with products like that.
I just bought an Oil Udder. There aren’t really any knockoffs of that on the market yet (not that I could see, and maybe because it isn’t a super popular product). If there happened to be a clone that mostly does the same thing even if it wasn’t exactly the same? I would have certainly considered it, but after learning more about the inventors of the Oil Udder and their other ventures, I don’t mind paying more than what the product is really worth just so they can keep going and perhaps come up with other good stuff in the future. I suppose I have a softer spot for “cottage” startups like that than I might for a very large company, which is an ethical hipocrasy, I know.
In the end I buy what I need to get the jobs done, and appreciate supporting good companies, will largely honor IP, but sometimes price is a factor and often things are priced rather ridiculously, which the imposters capitalize quickly upon, almost to prove a point.
Josh
Only reason i use amazon is for knock offs. If i want a name brand tool i go brick and mortar since even when ordering from amazon you risk getting a knockoff that’s labeled as a brand name unless that brand has an amazon store, and then they usually charge more because they have to pay amazon. Cheaper to go to the brands website or the website of a brick and mortar store. I have a really good industrial tool store, home improvement stores and several auto parts stores within about 10 minute’s away
robert
Perhaps knowing when it is a knock-off and isn’t should be the debate. These pliers are SMU pliers are purposely deceiving.
Micheal
There is a YouTube Channel where a guy is doing a lot of different tests with tools and other stuff. Many of his tests have shown knock offs to be better than what we think. Snap-On and other have failed in a lot of results.
I am starting to sway into trying some. I have changed some purchases due to his results. I do not agree with all his results, but I do like the Tests. I look at the tests results and pick the ones that best fit my needs.
Jp
I generally avoid knockoffs. But if it’s a one-time things, for a one off situation, I will try it. But yes, I have been burned by immediately failing tools so now I will only do this for knock off tools. It’s just too expensive to buy pro grade each time. I also do it for repeat use if rare, but low risk like my bike tools at home. I wouldn’t take a knock off on the road though.
Stacey Jones
OK, here’s a fun challenge for someone. I’m assuming these are even worse NWS counterfeits than the original post. Can anyone spot the difference? Or do you think the difference is just quality? If it’s the latter it might be a nice abuser set.
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mrtY2Ts
IronWood
No, absolutely not.
I’ve cut back shopping on Amazon because I’m so tired of searching through counterfeits and trash to find something. Unless I already know the exact brand/model to search for it’s not worth the hassle. Not really a browsing site anymore.
G
No, I won’t buy knockoff tools. By definition, the makers are lying/trying to deceive. So given that, why would their tools be any good? Buy cheap, buy twice. Not for me.
MtnRanch
These SWU tools aren’t “knock-offs” , they are counterfeits. The entire design is intended to confuse the consumer into believing they are buying NWS tools. If NWS doesn’t have design patents and trademarks registered they blew it.
Chip
There are a lot of it depends.
Yeti coolers and tumblers have been copied and equaled,out of these 2 genres ….I’ve only bought 1 official tumbler,and many using the form and functionality.
Many businesses have started with a salesman, board member,worker… starting their own business with using methods or even customers from the original company.
Festool was the innovater of many technologies, the domino is the only tool left that hasn’t been copied (or worth the price difference IMHO).
I seldom use my knock-off viking arm,and yes it’s very poorly built.
But the price of the original isn’t worth the ROI.
blocky
I enjoy a good bobo branding, and I’m happy to buy cheap tools now and then if the name and colors tickle me.
This one is clever, but uncanny valley – it’s too close to be cute, and definitely in the straight-up counterfeit zone.
Carl Sampson
Far more people in the end will buy the knock off tools with no issues regardless of what stance they may want to portray when asked the question. That’s why Harbor Freight is the only tool store in town and most tools by sales volume are not made in the US.
Franco
The Viking Arm was brought up in Stuart’s article. The price of 1 (to me) is ridiculous. I have seen a pair of copies sell for 10% the price of 1 genuine Viking arm; no not on alli-baba/express, but legitimate stores. (surely made in China)
I have many Squeeze clamps where you can take the end face of and put it on the opposite side to make it a spreader. I have done this often with my clamps and used it very much like a Viking clamp. Granted, the Viking Arm is probably sturdier and higher quality, but for many jobs my reversed clamps held up cupboards or other items without the price of the Viking Arm, which is why I probably have not bought a copy yet.
On Amazon, the Viking sells for $200 for 1. There are literally 50 or more copies selling anywhere from $20 to $100 for a pair. As much as I like buying the real McCoy and giving my money to the company that makes it…sorry, I think this is a classic price gouge by Viking Arm (Masca).
blocky
Wow, just looked up this “Viking arm”. Great concept and to all appearances appropriate build quality, but not an everyday tool for me. Definitely something I’ll purchase if the right job comes along. In the meantime, various bars, sticks, and shims gets me there – and of course, the relatively affordable winbag.
For a tool like this, where I can already improvise my way without it, the entire point is controlled precision– I’m not looking for any compromise in quality. I expect the price to be in line with a high-end bar clamp, plus some for the extra components and machining. $200/unit is steep but doesn’t strike me as gouging.
In this instance, I would consider an alternative manufacture if it offered incremental design and quality improvement at a similar (i.e. believable) price point. A quick scroll through the field, and none jump out.
Franco
Would I buy knock-off tools? Mostly “no”, but sometimes “yes”.
My issue with the SMU’s is that I have found that when copies are made to look identical to the real thing, like these SMU, they often have super low quality and not worth a fraction of what they sell for.
Sometime copies are copies, without being blatant identical twins. These can at times be decent quality.
Regardless, I bought the 9 piece set from Lee Valley, as well as a couple of other NWS single tools and am very happy with them.
As I usually tell one of my friends who believes in every conspiracy known to man and believes everything is over priced; we live in an incredibly capitalistic society. If someone is charging to much, dozens will undercut you and put you out of business. Charge a reasonable price and usually you will do fine.
Kamen
Yes, why buy pliers for £100 when there are £4 not multiful, but they are healthier, the other money remains in my pocket 😀💵💵💵💵💵💰
Matt
Everyone keeps saying “quality” .
What quality are you referring to? How does one determine the quality of brand x to compare it with the quality of brand y? I’m not a metallurgist, how would i compare the steel of two pliers? Is steel type the quality i should be evaluating? How do i know that smu is better than dws, I’ve never heard or either brand. What if smu is ripping off the design elements of rwg?
Tools, cars, and guns seen to be three products designed by actual engineers, but are “understood” to a granular level by people that don’t actually get the technical aspects of them. To further muddy the waters, viaduct the circular saw. Skil invented it in the 1920s. Skill was sold multiple times. Am i buying a knockoff circ saw unless it says skil? Can i buy a bosch circ saw made from 1996 to 2014 without reservation because they owned skil at the time, but now unless its chervon I’m buying a knockoff?
Is this really about anything more than color palette in the plastic and anti-China bias? I sure have no problem finding absolute garbage at full price from “reputable” manufacturers.
eddie sky
Yes and no. We have Harbor Freight (horror fright) and they tend to sell items for less that are almost as good as their copy. But I wouldn’t depend on them for a business, unless it was something like storage (a ball-bearing slide on a metal drawer might be of lesser gauge but still serve purpose of storage for home garage mechanic, and might work for a shop, but have a drawer fail and need replacement… well.
Also, I’ve some tools that are clearly knockoff of Rockler or Woodpecker and are actually as good or better (black instead of red with larger, easier to read number/indications)…but then saw a knockoff of a Woodpecker square that when checked, was off by 1/2″ in measuring!
I’ve seen those Harbor Freight sockets that have a typeface really close to Snap-on. But they have poor chrome finish, and some say have failed after a few whacks (where even a Craftsman socket can still take a beating and work as designed).
But I refuse knockoffs of items that if they failed, would be catastrophic. I use Knipex, Stanley, Klein, Makita, Dewalt, Bessey,… and would rather a sale or discount than “pay me now or pay me later” poor imitation.
Nathan
I buy knockoffs all the time but not total knockoffs. For example I’ll buy caryle model hand tool from napa on sale but I know it’s a gearwrench clone of something. (3/8 locking flex head ratchet for example)
I wouldn’t buy those knockoff pliers as they don’t appear to have a CAT voltage rating so they aren’t the same as the NWS, Knipex, Stahlwhile, etc etc pliers that look the same.
SO it depends alot on what I see.
Sam
Maybe starting out if you’re new. But it wouldn’t take me long once I got established to get the good stuff. Just my opinion