Little Machine Shop recently sent out a notice about upcoming price increases due to the trade war tariff situation.
I thought this might be important to some of you who might have been looking to buy any of their machine tools or equipment during the 2020 holiday season.
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Here’s what they say:
For over a year, many of our machines were excluded from the 25% additional tariff imposed by President Trump on most goods from China. That exclusion ended in September, and we now pay an additional 25% on those machines, which include mini mills, micro mills, bench lathes, and mini lathes. You know where we’re going with this: price increases.
The affected machines are going up in price by about 15%, effective November 10, 2020. The only good news in this announcement is that you can still get the old prices until then. (Sorry, but we’re not accepting backorders on machines; the old prices apply only to machines we have in stock. That’s because we’re paying the higher cost on everything we receive from now on.)
Note that the “old” price is now shown on each product page as a sale price. So that you’ll know how prices will change, the post-November 10 price is shown as the regular price.
Many of their mills are now sold out, but it looks like all of their lathes are still available.
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One could say “more reason to buy the USA-made alternatives,” but there are no USA-made alternatives for equipment of this size. Most USA-based equipment suppliers, such as Little Machine Shop, offer customized versions of imported equipment.
It is unclear as to whether other stores or suppliers are already affected by the trade war tariffs, or if they too are facing pricier reorders due to no longer being excluded or exempt.
Little Machine Shop’s email and website do not explain why their exclusion ended in September.
It’s not just Little Machine Shop
I was shopping at MSC, an industrial supplier, for some tools and supplies, including USA-made acid brushes, and saw a familiar notice.
Here’s what it says on the product page:
The price of this product reflects recent increases in trade tariffs. Need help finding an alternative not impacted by a tariff? Give one of our customer care experts a call @ 1-800-645-7270.
How are these tariffs affecting USA-made tool prices??
Some tool and cordless power tool prices also seem to be higher – I have been finding higher pricing on certain tools than when they first launched. But, that could be unrelated.
A couple of readers asked about how the trade war with China and resulting tariffs would affect tool pricing. At the time, none of our industry contacts were able to comment on the matter. Now, it’s still not clear as to what exactly has been affected, except when importers and retailers provide notices.
Last year at around this time, we were also told to prepare for possible price increases on German hand tools, but I haven’t heard much about this since then.
Brace for Possible Price Hikes – New Tariffs Imposed on German Hand Tools
Tool Box Tariff Update
The tool box tariff, which is a countervailing tariff not part of the trade war tariffs, was set to increase the price of steel tool chests and cabinets under a certain size and weight. The way the industry responded, they simply stopped selling smaller tool chests and cabinets from most overseas suppliers. Most of what’s marketed these days are larger and deeper tool boxes that circumvent the tariffs. Try finding a 16″ or 18″ deep tool box these days – consumer-grade or under $500 – and let me know how many you find outside of Craftsman.
Steve
Might this be the reason why we’re seeing generally higher prices on TTi produced tools this holiday season?
Jim Felt
Well now.
Someone has to pay for these “brilliant” Trade War Tariffs.
Specially the end buyer in exactly one country. The good ol’ US of A.
AKA in this case individual retail buyers. Certainly not any foreign country. Yup. That’ll teach ‘Em!
Of course who exactly is learning what lesson?
Asking for a country.
Stuart
The idea is that imported products will be priced so much higher so as to make domestic goods more desirable.
Generally, it’s a good idea in theory when you have high quality USA products and lower priced imported products.
But when there aren’t any domestic alternatives, yes, end users pay the higher prices, and there’s no way around it. So as to not pass the full brunt of the tariff increases to consumers, some brands and retailers try to absorb some of the cost, shaving down their profit margins.
There are ways for the market to adapt, but it takes time. And if not, everyone loses.
One might hope that this would help drive development of USA-made products, but it doesn’t, and it won’t – it’s simply too expensive and companies aren’t willing to do it. I’ve asked a couple of brands over the years, and most have said that is just too cost-prohibitive to set up new manufacturing here.
Matt
>I’ve asked a couple of brands over the years, and most have said that is just too cost-prohibitive to set up new manufacturing here.<
Yes, when there is a cheaper alternative like China. Now that the alternative is gone and artificially low prices for goods (because the Chinese government subsidizes manufacturing), setting up in the USA might not look like such a bad option.
Troy H
All that does is cement the higher price permanently.
Tariffs are paid by the consumer one way or another. That’s why all the economists that were ignored say they’re a bad idea.
Greg
Exactly Stuart! For complex tools or things requiring complex manufacturing techniques the manufacturing will never be set up here again.
Another thing people don’t realize is when things were almost all proudly made here whether it was hand tools, power tools, and products in every discernable area we also had all of the supply chains here as well. We had every large and small company domestic that made the individual components that went into the bigger product.
It’s not the case anymore, when the bigger companies moved over seas the smaller feeder companies / industries went with them. This plus labor is why it’s too expensive to manufacture here for most things. Go to Youtube and watch some videos on the Chinese product markets. They either make or can make every single component which makes things incredibly cheap to manufacture. No politician has come up with a way to fix it and I doubt it could be done in today’s climate. It’s just like health care however you feel about it politically. The systemic issue is why does everything have to cost so much. Address that very complex issue and healthcare as a whole will be a lot better or fixed. However again no politician wants to touch on that.
aerodawg
Manufacturing could be brought here again eventually, but we’d have to stop inflating our currency to the moon. A very very very good case can be made that inflationary monetary policy was and is the primary driver of manufacturing offshoring .
King duck
For many manufacturers the USA is not the only market so why increase the cost for the rest of the world when you can just pass the cost on to the country being run by a man that can’t figure out how tariffs work.
Chris I
Nobody, probably, knows more about tariffs than him. Trust me. Nobody.
Mike
Even with a domestic alternative it doesn’t work when domestic manufacturers raise prices too.
Washing machines have a tariff and as one could guess, US companies decided to cash in:
“The study also found that domestically manufacturers raised prices on their washing machines, as well.”
Matt
China is learning for sure. Yes, we as consumers are starting to incur the higher cost, but companies are actively getting out of China. All those times people said, “I’d happily pay more for MIUSA tools”, well the time is coming to pay up. And China will be hurting as manufacturing exits en masse. It’s already happening.
Sal Colon
I wholeheartedly agree Matt. For decades, politicians have been sending American jobs overseas. These tariffs will bring some manufacturing back to the US or other allies countries. It will be a little tough in the beginning, but will be good for the US in the long term. Just think, it could have been worse. Obama almost had the TPP in place. Thank God Trump shot it down. All we need to do now is keep the pressure on China and continue to “encourage” more companies to leave China. Even Japan is enticing companies to move to Japan by paying them, giving subsidies, etc.
Stuart
I hate to tell you, but it’s not “politicians sending jobs overseas,” but American spending habits. Americans vote with their wallets, and their votes are saying “we prefer cheaper goods.”
It’s businesses too – do you think Trump properties source products from USA suppliers at higher cost, or do they go with lower-cost imported products?
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-owned-properties-imported-more-than-8-tons-of-chinese-goods-2020-7
When you cut through all the rhetoric, yes, people will buy from domestic companies when the price gap is small. And that’s a goal of tariffs, to narrow that price gap to make domestic products more competitive in price.
But what about the types of products for which there aren’t any USA-made alternatives? Or accessible alternatives from Europe, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, or other countries?
When no alternate exists, the customer pays more, the brands and retailers potentially earn less, and nobody wins.
Mike (the other one)
Stuff that’s made in USA will also see a price increase, because there is less competition, and they know people will pay more if they have to.
Pietro
Not everything is made in China. China was getting special privileges on imports, now China has to play a fair game. If China doesn’t want to compete at the fair rules then China should fine someone else to give them special treatment. Fairtrade helps tremendously domestic companies and European importers as well.
Domestic or imports coming out of the EU or Japan don’t have a tariff increase. It’s all up to the customer if customers can pay more I don’t see a reason why a company should sell for less. Business isn’t a charity foundation.
King duck
Exactly look at the steel tariffs all they did was make the cost go up imports stayed about the same in relation to domestic production but the industry as a whole is down.
Michael F
Whether news like this bothers you or not is probably entirely dependent on if you think a long-term US manufacturing increase is important. Personally, I don’t think 15-25% price increases are a huge deal in the short-term if it provides an incentive for more companies to manufacture stateside long-term. I think the push we’ve seen recently for SBD and TTi to manufacture tools (or at least assemble tools) here in the US is just the beginning. These tariffs are annoying but in the long run will pay dividends.
Stuart
SBD and TTi’s movements very strongly seem to follow pre-existing patterns and missions, and do not at all seem to be attributed to the trade war tariffs.
Stanley Black & Decker’s plan to produce some Craftsman tools in the USA is not influenced by the tariff – this was a goal of theirs all along, and aligned with their pre-trade war practices of moving select tool assembly lines to USA factories. SBD also purchased Waterloo, a tool box maker, prior to the tariffs.
TTi making tools in the USA doesn’t seem to be in response to the trade war tariffs. They already make some tools here, and it’s a strategic move for Milwaukee to want to make select trade-focused tools here. They’ve been expanding their USA infrastructure for years, in terms of R&D, production, and acquisitions. This is a part of that mission.
https://toolguyd.com/milwaukee-made-in-usa-hand-tools-092020/
It’s a continuation of their investment in USA manufacturing.
Saying that these tariffs “will pay dividends” down the road is a gamble. It really depends on the industry and types of products. All we can look at is the right here and right now. If you insist on looking forward, I would say there is 0% chance that the tools Little Machine Shop is raising the price will have any USA-made equivalents.
I have grown very skeptical of “action now for later possibilities” types of deals.
Armstrong started closing down 3 years ago. https://toolguyd.com/apex-tool-group-cuts-armstrong-and-allen-tool-brands/
Western Forge closed down this year. https://toolguyd.com/western-forge-usa-hand-tools-sears-craftsman-supplier-closing-022020/
Shop-Vac is closing. https://toolguyd.com/shop-vac-closes-williamsport-pennsylvania-headquarters-usa-092020/
COVID-19 accelerated some closures https://toolguyd.com/covid-19-news-relaxed-retail-policies-usa-factory-closures-051320/
Alcoa shut down some smelters.
Bally Block Co shut down a factory.
I WANT to see more USA production. I pay higher prices for USA-made products when there’s the option and I can afford to do so.
But the fact of the matter is that, for tools and products not currently being produced in the USA, these tariffs probably won’t change that.
US production is suffering. In theory, tariffs *could* help. But in this and many other cases, it’s not, and it won’t.
Look what happened in 2019 – Wilton discontinued their USA-made bullet vises, replacing them with redesigned vises made-in-Taiwan: https://toolguyd.com/new-wilton-tradesman-mechanics-pro-bullet-vises/
With all the closures over the years, it’ll be near impossible for certain tools and equipment to be built entirely from domestic sources.
Michael F
I don’t entirely disagree with you on any of your points. I know that SBD and TTi were already starting to push towards onshoring some manufacturing before the tariffs hit. However, both the push to onshore manufacturing and the tariffs are both a response to the publics desire to see more manufacturing in the US. Support for protectionist economic policies certainly helped to get Trump elected and he enacted the tariffs.
My point is that there is a protectionist streak running through some segments of the population right now and both Trump and companies like SBD and TTi are trying to cater to that and catch the support of this segment of the population. The tariffs are a symptom, not a cause.
Manufacturing takes time to setup. Supply chains don’t grow overnight. For example, we (the US) sold our last forges and presses capable of creating the alloy parts for fighter jet airframes to Russia a few years back. There isn’t a single plant in the entire US that can manufacture those parts, so we allow our military to purchase them internationally. An Army Captain friend and me were discussing this a while back: control over our supply chain (both from a domestic and military perspective) is a matter of sovereignty and national security. The tariffs are simply one part of a protectionist effort to achieve that.
Stuart
The problem is – many people say they want more USA-made products, but they don’t want to spend more money on them.
So many USA-made tool brands have shut down, because people say “sure I want more domestic products” but then vote otherwise with their wallets.
Kizzle
I see those people all of the time. “Them Chinese taking all our jobs! Hold my beer, I need to run to Harbor Freight quick.”
Kentucky fan
The presses from the 1950’s heavy press program are still in use making those parts all over the United States. Your friend was mistaken.
William Adams
Which presses were sold?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoa_50,000_ton_forging_press was recently repaired
and no mention of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyman-Gordon_50,000_ton_forging_press being relocated
How do you even sell and move something which has a building built around it?
Stuart
Their Ferndale, Washington smelter.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/local-business/alcoa-to-shut-ferndale-smelter-throwing-700-out-of-work/
The layoffs were complete by September.
https://myferndalenews.com/intalco-layoffs-and-curtailment-complete-who-is-to-blame_107110/
William Adams
Closed != Sold overseas
Ryan
>SBD and TTi’s movements very strongly seem to follow pre-existing patterns and missions, and do not at all seem to be attributed to the trade war tariffs.<
Stuart – You are wrong. SBD is moving a lot more things out of China at a much faster pace because of the tariffs. Was there a pre-existing mission to strategically bring some products to North America for logistics reasons? – yes. But to suggest that the overall strategy hasn't changed to move as many products out of China as possible is wrong. They are moving to other countries as fast as they can because of the tariffs.
Stuart
But to the USA?
Their Texas facility was very likely a part of their plan for Craftsman all along, and with includes capacity expansion for their other USA-focused brands.
What tools are Stanley Black & Decker now making in the USA that were made in China, as a direct result of the trade war tariffs?
You say “they are moving to other countries as fast as they can because of the tariffs.” But which of these companies are establishing new production here as the direct result of the tariffs? All I’m saying is that SBD and TTi’s maneuvers should not be considered as directly influenced by these tariffs, that these examples are not a cause-and-effect relationship.
Moving assembly of a power tool from China to Mexico? Sure, that gets around the tariffs and is somewhat aligned with SBD’s “make it where you sell it” goal. But that doesn’t bring any new infrastructure or jobs here.
There is the potential for it, though, but only for certain tools and equipment. For others, such as the machines at Little Machine Shop, that potential is as close to zero as it gets.
fred
If the issues of fair trade, tariffs and trade wars were simple matter we would have solved the problem long ago.Throw into the mix the issues of: nationalism; political will and ideologies; development, ownership and security of intellectual property; national security; environmental and social justice; and a batch of other things – then the path forward becomes even more complicated.
I like to think about it in simpler terms. As a purely fictitious example – if company A operating in State A wanted to undercut Company B operating in State B on something you wanted to purchase – you might go with the lower price. But what if you lived in State B and found out that Company A was receiving a big subsidy from State A to do so? You might still buy the lower priced item – thinking that if the taxpayers of State A want to subsidize my purchase – why should I care. But – what if you suspected that the subsidy was meant to drive the your state’s -based company out of business? Would that change your purchasing decision? Then you might also think about the difference in labor rates between those locales. Would you be willing to pay for a locally made item at higher price to support workers in your state? What if you suspected that Company A may have stolen its technology from Company B. Would that change your mind? What if you imagined that its state’s government may have been complicit in that theft. What action would you then take? What if you found out that Company A was only one of many companies in State A that were dumping products on the market at artificially low prices to drive everyone else out of business? and so on. Then what would you think if your state collected a tax on goods made in State B and passed that tax – not onto State B – but onto you? You might think that OK if the tax collected were used to help business in your state – but perhaps not if it just went into the general coffers.
My thought is that labor-intensive operations like much manufacturing tends to gravitate to locations that have abundant sources of cheap labor. Given a free market that labor pool will not remain “cheap” forever – because as people start to earn any sort of wage (above the subsistence level) their aspirations for a better life increase. Those aspirations force wages, working conditions, calls for environmental and social justice etc. to increase and the low-cost locality will likely move. What skews this is that the market is not always free – and governments may choose to intervene – either for the good or detriment of others. Getting the government of China to “play fair” in the world market will undoubtedly be one of the biggest challenges facing our children and theirs – and many others in the world.
Matt
Maybe this is included in “political will”. But you left off, what if a major government official in State B (your state) was taking kickbacks (maybe not directly, but through his son and other family members) from State A to keep policies in place that are favorable to State A and unfavorable for State B.
Frank D
From what I recall, the tariff war … let’s call it politely … ” gamble “; costs US citizens $50 billion, annually.
$50 billion annually in tariff costs, passed on to the consumer, small businesses and corporations to pay for the same materials and goods.
Direct benefit to us? None.
Mid term?
Long term?
I have yet to see or hear about any substantial changes or gross increases in US Manufacturing. OK, a couple small tool brands are now assembling more power tools with foreign components and materials.
Has anything really beneficial happened in these past few years?
John
“Has anything really beneficial happened in these past few years?”
Simple answer is NO and many articles are now showing that with actual numbers and facts. The pumpkin in chief does not know any better than past administrations.
Stuart
Please refrain from political comments.
JoeM
I mean no disrespect here Stuart, but we can’t have an in-depth analysis, or even a proper VENTING OF FRUSTRATION, over the situation that affects us all (INCLUDING CANADA!) without crossing over into the Political statement territory.
We can analyze whether we have found alternatives, trace it back to X or Y or Z happening… but it will always come down to this: A Politician made the decision to make things difficult for tool users in North America.
We need a pass, as a community, to break the “No Politics” rule when dealing with Taxes and Tariffs on this subject. Only one entity can impose or control Taxes and Tariffs, and that’s the Political Body. There’s only so many ways we can tip-toe gracefully around the minefield of the Tariff wars before we are all just stepping on land mines of Political frustration.
The move has hurt the Canadian economy to the point that shipping across the border costs more than the goods we order. I’ve had to cancel an order from my favourite small-business in South Carolina, a Silk-Screening company that makes beautiful shirts, and has just entered the Comics and Magazine printing business. I was set to get myself a nice $30 Shirt and Magazine bundle, and continue to drool over their new Comics… But even a $5 Comic has a $90 shipping cost from the US to Canada. Between the Tariffs, and the Covid lockdown of our border, the STRICTLY POLITICAL situation between countries right now, regardless of who said what, is the core cause of our frustrations about this.
You’re not wrong in wanting to keep Politics off of ToolGuyd. 99% of the time, it’s unnecessary, and is just poking a bear for a fight. But this issue affects more than just the USA, and it is SOLIDLY, SQUARELY, rooted in the Political situation in the USA. If you want intelligent people like us to have an intelligent conversation about the problem, we need some wiggle room to talk about the Politics that got us to this tragic point.
Now, I am HAPPY to throw Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, and leader of the Liberal party), Jagmeet Singh (Federal leader of the NDP in Canada.), and Doug Ford (Premiere of Ontario, and a member of the Conservative Party in Canada) under the nearest bus for the poor job they’ve done in handling these two crises. But I’m not asking you to let me do that. I AM asking that you, perhaps, put some of our political comments on a context-based waiver system, where the inevitable political Land Mine exists at the core of the problem. Where we can’t come up with a solution, a suggestion, or talk about the intricacies of navigating around the problem, without also hitting the Politicians square in the jaw for putting us here.
Otherwise, we’re tiptoeing through a landmine of politics here. We all know it started with politics, we all know only our politicians can change things, and as MANY have mentioned before, we vote with our WALLETS more than our BALLOTS. So the true “Consumers” are the big stores and online stores, only purchasing products we’re willing to buy. And nobody gives them more freedom to control what we buy than the people in Politics who don’t set up loophole control taxation to prevent them from restricting our choices like that. We can talk for ages (Exhibit A, seen presently.) all around the wreckage of the problem, but we’re still Human Beings, and at some point our Analysis is going to come up with looking at the wreckage and saying “A Politician did this. There’s the tell-tale signs all over this wreck, and we can’t talk about it on this stite.”
So… I mean this with sincerity and honesty, not malice or rebellion… But Stuart? When you uttered the word “Tariff” in the title to this article, you’re the one who laid the minefield for us to run into the politics all the time. You may be reporting this as a warning to us about it incoming, but we’re walking a minefield that you laid out in trying to talk about it within the confines of “no Politics”… Politics is at the core of any Tariff, Tax, War, or International Diplomatic Trade. We can’t TRULY avoid it for long.
Stuart
How can I trust that there will be civil discourse when someone’s opening remark contains the phrase The “pumpkin in chief”?
James C
Sure, the ridiculousness of the guy’s spray tan can go without saying, but you bring up good points. It’s a bigger issue than our cheap stuff from China got incrementally more expensive. The Canadian perspective is interesting and I’d like to hear more about it. I’d also like to hear thoughts on the price of lumber skyrocketing.
JoeM
Stuart, in all honesty? I’m ignoring the “Pumpkin in Chief” statement in my plea here. I think that one does require a civility check, as usual.
In my heart of hearts… I just didn’t want to start an all new post here, out of context, asking for this slight waiver system. I think political insults and hyperbolic nicknames are out of line, but we do have to have a TINY bit of wiggle room to state “Party X” or “Politician X” stated this particular thing in Policy Y, and that was bad for us.
I was afraid to bring this idea of a “Politics Rule Waiver” up at all, because, like you, I don’t like the politics either. It gives me anxiety issues pretty fiercely. At the same time… at some point or another, when you mention Trade Wars or Tariffs… You’re laying down a landmine for intelligent people to converse with.
Yes. Absolutely, insults and divisive behaviour need to be policed and removed, in favour of discussion about who actually put these problems in our way. But we’re supposed to be adults here, even if we’re in our late teens and early twenties, just getting into the fields using these tools you show us. We need to use people’s real names, titles, and quotes from their public statements that led to this problem. I think this should be a limited time offer type of situation, where politics have this wiggle-room only when we’re talking about subjects like this one. Where genuine Politicians are the ones who caused the situation.
I guess I’m proposing a warning label somewhere in the article, allowing politics to be discussed, but only in civil tones and without name calling or attacks. If that warning isn’t in an article, then I don’t see any reason, whatsoever, to hold people to any new standards about not talking politics in other article comments.
There’s a lot of frustration going on, mostly centered around the Lockdowns due to the Pandemic, and the mishandling of employment benefits, and economic negotiations during this time as done by our political representation. I could name Trump in this, but that wouldn’t really be the whole truth. The Premiere of Ontario, Doug Ford, has also done some massive mishandling of the situation, and contradicted the US trade ambassador several times. He and Trump are nearly identical in those kinds of mis-steps in the political arena. I could also mention the curve balls that are being thrown out as scandals in Canadian Parliaments at the Federal and Provincial levels, where we have a multi-party system that can’t stay on task without trying to derail everything with unrelated scandals every week. This is extremely frustrating, but this level of incompetence up North here, is contributing to YOUR troubles in the USA when it comes to negotiating trade and TARIFFS with our Border locked down the way it is. The blame isn’t solely on you, and it’s not solely on us in Canada, but the problem IS tanking our Economy up here, making small purchases for self-employed, or self-entertained, makers to get supplies.
I spoke earlier of a T-Shirt and Silk Screening company earlier. To get a $30 shirt packaged with a well printed magazine they just started, the shipping would have been $90 Canadian. To make a package WORTH $90 Canadian, you’d have to spend at least, in my opinion, somewhere around $400 worth of Merchandise, Canadian. But at that price point, and the exchange rate, the shipping goes up to $120 Canadian. This moving target is REALLY bad for that small business in North Carolina, and it is VERY bad for consumers here in Canada who love that company. The currency exchange right now is dropping in a negative way, meaning $1 CAD is only worth around $0.7 USD. Add Customs, Taxes, and Tariffs imposed by the US due to the lockdown, and the tax rate becomes 2-4 times the normal tax rate in tariffs between our countries. 10 day delivery times turn into 40 days, even through couriers.
And I say all of this because… it’s all Politics… and it’s all important to the discussion of this incoming Tariff pricing for these Chinese-Made benchtop machining tools. It’s an example of why a TINY bit of wiggle room may be needed to really discuss this topic, but not so much that we begin mud-flinging at eachother.
Honestly… I was terrified to bring this up, because I am well aware, and in full agreement with you, that talking politics when in the presence of Tool Users is not always the smartest, nor is it always the most productive, use of the site. But, the voice of reason in my head had to speak up for seeing the Minefield that is laid down about the current situation we’re all living in. How it might be necessary to do this for these topics, simply to remove the minefield from our feet, and let the really intelligent conversation about these topics be discussed.
Within reason, of course. No mud slinging, no name calling… but we do have to be able to say political things when facing a political topic. At least without fear of being punished for it. That’s the minefield. If I say I’m Canadian, and I feel the pain of this political situation in extreme sympathy and unity with my American ToolGuyd posters… I know it will harm no one. If I add that our Politicians are not handling this very well either, do I then have to fear I have offended the rules? That is what I worry about. We may have some very good points waiting for us, coming from a lot of posters with knowledge of this situation, but they’re holding back because of the contradiction between the literal Political statement in the title, combined with the site’s VERY real rule against talking Politics on the site. It’s reasonable to impose this on an article about Saws, or Milwaukee’s latest deals… it’s not so easy when we’re literally talking about an entire tool company’s sudden, near exponential, raising in prices in order to handle the Tariffs imposed on them by politicians.
I know… I’m rambling… I’m kinda nervous about this topic, because I just didn’t know how to suggest this to you without sounding like I was opposing you. That’s not my intention. Though I can understand how it can be taken that way, and I apologize for that.
Stuart
Sticking to facts isn’t the problem, it’s that few will stick to facts.
Politics is similar to religion, in that discussions will quickly involve opinions and beliefs. Everything gets personal and fast.
My goal was to avoid a political argument stemming from the mentioned pumpkin comment. If you had something completely unrelated to say, you could have.
But you also mentioned the need to vent. People often bring existing baggage to any political conversation, and things spiral out of relevance.
I’m not interested in blame games, but that’s what it always goes to, that and personal attacks because few can handle possibly being wrong in a public discussion with strangers.
JoeM
James C,
If I’m being totally honest? I’m Diabetic, and taking care of an Elderly Mother who had a heart attack earlier this year. I haven’t checked the lumber pricing lately, as I’ve been on medical lockdown since January as a high-risk group myself, as well as a high-risk situation with my Mother in ill health.
I am pretty sure Lumber prices from our local smaller Lumber Yard will still be low, as it sources its supplies from within the country. I am not positive about the Box Stores, or where their supplies come from in Canada. Due to some anxiety issues, I haven’t kept up with the News as much as people would like, I just got too angry at everything going on, and it was bad for my heart, and my mental health. But I would SURMISE that some of the lumber prices for Softwoods would have gone rather high in the US, because there is an Export of Canadian Lumber to the US on a regular basis… but that has been halted with the Border Lockdown… Plus there has been a bit of retaliation from the new trade alliance formed in favour of the US as the primary beneficiary of all the trade deals… Between the two factors, all shipments and shipping costs between the US and Canada have practically tripled since the collapse of NAFTA. Canada and the US shouldn’t have to do this to eachother, as our Mountain, Forest, and Fresh Water Ecosystems are directly connected to eachother. Our construction industries do better when we have closer equality in our trade goods. This isn’t some hippie garbage I’m spewing, it’s a historical fact. The Rockies and the Great Lakes are directly connected, as is the Geological feature called “The Canadian Shield” which contains some of the largest concentrations of Granite and Igneous Building Supplies used in both countries. it spreads all the way down to… I think the Carolinas? Maybe Kentucky? Goes as far west as Montana I believe… but it’s a HUGE central plate to the continent, and it contains somewhere close to 80% of our renewable, sustainable Hardwood forests for both countries. Closer to the Rockies, we have more of the Pines and Cedars that make up the industries for Softwoods, and both countries cull lumber from the Rockies for any number of supplies. But without us trading some part of these resources with eachother, those industries lose value. When they lose value, plus cost more to ship, the prices to obtain them go through the roof.
What is going on right now isn’t fair to anyone in either country right now. Right now, we can each walk into the capital buildings of our nations, with a single pebble, throw it as gentle, or as hard as we wish, and we WILL hit someone who is responsible, at least in some part, for making our building-stuff lives difficult right now. Right on down to interns and paiges, gophers and assistants. Lobbyists, Seat-Holders, and people in power alike. You don’t even need to wish them harm, and throwing that tiny stone will result in a 100% accuracy rate of identifying SOMEONE involved in the chain of power, causing us all trouble right now.
This is, of course, a hypothetical. The Secret Service in the US, and the RCMP in Canada, WILL take you down for carrying any kind of stone into these buildings. So it isn’t advisable.
Matt
Yes. From what I’ve seen at my job, many companies are pulling manufacturing from China. Does that directly “benefit” the American people? Not sure, but I know it’s hurting China who was fast becoming a major political threat. I’m happy to know a communist country is benefiting less from American consumerism.
Stuart
Are you able to speak about the types of companies?
TonyT
Stuart, the move out of China is definitely happening, although most production might not be returning to the US. For what I’d consider an authoritative source, see the China Law Blog (e.g. https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/06/has-sourcing-product-from-china-become-too-risky.html ).
Also, I’ve seen it in the COO of stuff I buy – less from China, more from elsewhere. In my current work computer, the motherboard was made in Vietnam, the SSD in Mexico, the memory in Taiwan, etc. The Dewalt DCS565B you just posted has a COO of Mexico.
Stuart
Keep in mind that Dewalt has pre-established factories in Mexico.
Companies are shifting production to where they have existing infrastructure. Many brands aim for a “make it where you sell it” network of factories, and they can do that.
But still, Vietnam, Mexico, Taiwan – companies might be shifting out of China where they can, but which of those brands are shifting production to the USA as the direct result of these tariffs?
For basic products, maybe. But what about more complex products and equipment where there are no USA-based companies at this time?
For the products at Little Machine Shop, I don’t see the overseas companies establishing new operations here in the USA. I don’t see American companies launching competition against them. So, it’s going to be high prices. I don’t think it’s fair to say “but this will pay off in dividends” because I can’t see how that could happen.
TonyT
Based on posts on The China Law Blog, it’s possible that they needed better lawyers. (My understanding of tariff exceptions is very lacking, but it seems you need to provide appropriate and thorough documentation at the right time – and even then your request might get rejected).
Tim D
Stuart,
You mention the “US made acid brushes” going up in price due to tariffs- the reason can only be that some of the material contained in the tool is subject to the tariff.
Made in the USA and assembled in the USA are not the same.
Mike
More like made in Taiwan. China is to expensive now lol.
Jim Felt
Oddly enough the largest group of actual “factories” in the world, commonly known as Foxconn, are mostly in China but owned by a rather astute and “successful” gent from Taiwan.
Who BTW at Apple’s semi-request is investing $3B in a new assembly line in India.
No local Brahman though will be applying for jobs there I’d wager. ;-)~
Bob
The real question we should be asking is why are people buying $2600+ crumby glorified drill presses from a Chinese importer?
The two that I have used were garbage! And believe me I wanted them to be awsome. Lighter weight, brand new, warranty etc. After putting in tons of work and money modding them they are still not up to snuff. Ps Im not making stuff for NASA or NASCAR. It just has to fit together with resonable tolerances.
There probably is a reason no reputable USA based manufacturer is putting their name on a mill of this type. Besides having to compete with the chicom manufacturing juggernaut the simple fact is to make reasonable cuts in steel you need rigidity. This requirement inevitably results in higher cost. Lets not forget manual milling is a shrinking field. Want to invest R&D capitol into my buggy whip company lol?
If you want repeatable milling capabilities in steel and want a reasonable depth of cut your better off going with a used Bridgeport, Brown & Sharp, or heck even an Enco import. And its same money. Yes its not apples to apples. Those are new, these are used. These are heavier etc etc.
Or wait until someone comes up with a newer technology offering a ridged repeatable cut and relativley light weight. Ill give you a hint the abreviation is CNC.
And before you yell at me I love manual milling. I put cutting fluid in my Coffee. No seriousley that s#!t allways gets splased in my coffee cup. Blah! Gross!
In regards to the tarriffs, I would like to see the money collected go to people/companies who want to make these products domestically instead of the regular general tax box. Low intetest loans, grants, government contracts etc etc. This in addition to the price protection would jumpstart the local competition. I would however adjust the artificial competition down as the domestic industry grows. Not a fan of perminant subsidies.
I agree tariffs/trade wars are extremely complicated things. There are no guarantees of success. But doing nothing and continuing to let the problem fester only guarantees we keep geting the short end of the stick.
Stuart
At this time I haven’t noticed price increases at Precision Matthews, Grizzly, or MSC. But if those brands aren’t exempt, there aren’t any USA-made alternatives there either.
William Adams
The CNC angle is interesting. (ob. discl. I work for a company which makes inexpensive CNC machines, ironically using much larger CNCs, see: https://carbide3d.com/blog/2015/how-to-buy-a-haas/ — and we’ve just bought a 5-axis machine).
We have feeds and speeds for mild steel, and folks have been successful with Grade 1 titanium and even some basic knife-making: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_DnkEnhZPM — but physics are inexorable, and one wants the structure to be markedly more rigid than the forces involved in a given cut, so tooling engagement and depth of cut should be kept low which increase the time needed for cuts and the cost of tooling. The nascent Shapeoko Pro increases mass by ~20% (up to 175 lbs. from ~145) so it will be interesting to see where all this goes from here. (Interestingly a competitor dispensed with the table/baseplate, expecting folks to source that part of the structure on their own)
Adaptive and trochoidal toolpaths help a lot, and we’ve had some customers doing simply amazing work (albeit in aluminum for the most part): https://community.carbide3d.com/t/hardcore-aluminum-milling-on-an-s3/9744
There was one DIY CNC which used positional encoders and had a manual mode of operation: http://jrkerr.com/lobocnc/ — I was kind of expecting the SwissMak guy from Kickstarter to do something similar, but that project seems to have gotten hung up.
William Adams
An alternative here would be the Multimachine which uses the innovative approach of engine blocks being readily available and already precisely machined.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimachine
and you should look up the DIY lathe which inspired it.
(FWIW, I’ve always regretted giving away my Vol. 2 of the Gingery Books)
Peter Fox
I will respectfully disagree with the sentiment that these machines are not capable of making accurate parts.
They are certainly not without limitations, nor are they replacements for larger industrial grade machines. They fill an important space in the market that was never filled by traditional US and european machine tool builders.
I have personally owned a Sieg SX3 bench top mill in green trim from Grizzly (G0619)for about 13 years. I have made many many parts accurately and can consistently make parts that fit together as intended.
I do not have the shop space for full size machines and it has been a great match for the worn out 9″ Southbend lathe that I have. You do have to work within its limitations, it cannot hog material. They are a good compromise for those of us who would otherwise not have the option to own machine tools. Far better than nothing and with patience and experience quite capable.
In the end it is up to the operator to make up for the limitations their tools have. Anyone can make perfect parts on brand new high end equipment, it takes a little more skill as a craftsman to make perfect parts on lesser equipment.
Mark
You can’t have free trade with a mercantilist juggernaut who plays by a different set of rules. What I think is needed to go along with the tariffs is a domestic Marshall Plan of sorts to rebuild our own manufacturing base.
We’re starting to see something like this for the pharma industry. If it works, it could be used as a model for other industries.
Scott
Here is an example of the supply chain issue. It deals with screws, go figure.
http://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-china-made.amp.html
928'er
Bottom line: China doesn’t pay the tariffs, we do.
Trump’s and Larry Kudlow his “economic advisor” – who, by the way, has zero formal economics qualifications – have refined stupidity into an art form.
Bob
Politics aside. In general, if the price is more expensive due to a tariff most consumers are not going to buy the product. Lack of a revenue stream certainly does hurt China.
In this instance apparently these types of products are only made in China currently. Looks like a great opportunity for a entrepreneur to set up a facility in a country that doesn’t engage in predatory economics.
As far as the i-phone screws: Apple was pissed they couldn’t march into the local Texas machine shop and demand they work around the clock to make screws due to an Apple engineering (wait for it) screw up?
On the one side if I was Apple I would be ecstatic about the Chinease commitment to getting what the customer wants right damn now!
On the other hand if I’m screw shop worker making two bucks an hour and some communist thug comes knocking on my door and tells me to go to work at 1 o’clock in the morning for the next 36hrs I’m not so happy.
This honestly sounds like a excuse from Apple as to why they can’t produce product in the United States. Any company we’ve worked with that his moved production has been a cluster mess. That includes domestic to overseas, overseas to domestic, etc. Anytime you have to relocate a plant or deal with different workers, supply chains, it’s always a learning curve. You would think a 2 Trillion dollar company would know that!
Jason S.
Stuart, I love your site, but remind me not to come here for political insight. Reading most of these comments including yours has somehow made me dumber. Please for the love of god, let’s set politics aside on this one site that brings me tool enjoyment most weeks. I visit this site for insight on Knipex and Milwaukee not Trump and tariffs.
Stuart
Good advice.
gmg733
This is a funny thread with all the responses. I look at it a different way. I can get Wiha screwdrivers for about the same cost as Klein screwdrivers. Wiha made in Germany and has a higher tax rate. The issue is America’s pure corporate greed. How can a small family owned company like Wiha make one of the best tools in the world and keep a healthy finance sheet. Easy, it’s not a massive corporation who is more concerned with raising stock price and CEO salary. A good hardworking company making great tools. Pure and simply philosophy. American needs more Wiha type companies. Lastly, I do own many Wilde tools. Nice tools made in the Midwest. Reasonably priced and of great quality. You can buy 3-5 Chinese tools or one US made tool.