My heart skipped a beat when I took my kids to preschool this morning. There, on our front steps, an early morning delivery of a shiny new Milwaukee M18 cordless table saw.
As soon as I published a quick post this morning, I went out and unboxed the saw. The stand is still on the way, and so I secured it to a workstand (ideally it should be screwed or strongly clamped down), and started familiarizing myself with the features and accessory placements.
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The M18 12Ah High Output battery pack was still charging, so I equipped it with a partially charged 5.0Ah battery that I had been using with the M18 7-1/4″ sliding miter saw.
The blade was perfectly aligned out of the box, although I did have to find a Torx key (which I also borrowed from the miter saw) to adjust the angle marker.
I’m still not sure where the blade guard docks when it’s not being used, but everything else was more or less easy to swap around.
The riving knife locking lever is on the underside of the left side of the saw, which isn’t quite as easy to toggle as if it were within the blade compartment, but the placement does mean that I don’t have to squeeze my hand into tight spaces.
I didn’t try the One-Key functionality yet.
It ripped 2x material quite easily, and crosscut it just as well. I wasn’t ready to push it through a lot of project work, but I liked what I saw so far. Early signs suggest that it’ll be every bit a capable portable table saw as Milwaukee claims.
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The included 8-1/4″ framing blade cuts fast, and rough. I’ll have to think about what I will want to replace it with.
There’s a lot more I need to do before I can put together a formal review. But so far, I’m excited. And this was all based on how it performed with a 5.0Ah battery pack. I can’t wait to see what it can do when paired with the 12.0Ah pack that it was designed for.
Price: $549 for the kit
Buy Now(via Acme Tool)
Model: 2736-21HD
Thank you to Milwaukee for providing the review sample unconditionally.
OldDominionDIYer
Sounds good, seems like it will operate decent with something other than an HO battery. Something I thought to be the case but hadn’t been confirmed, I’m looking forward to your full review in the future.
Flotsam
I would like to see some of these tools be hybrid power; ie. Powered off 110VAC as well as battery power.
Stuart
Maybe in the future?
I think that, maybe a few years from now, the next flagship corded tables saws and miter saws will be hybrid-powered. But, with tools like Dewalt’s 120V Max miter saw, there’s a higher power potential with battery power than with AC.
Dewalt did some tests of their 9Ah battery at a 60-amp discharge rate. I believe that the theoretical output is ~70A, but I don’t remember and cannot find the reference.
In Flexvolt 60V Max, that would be 20A discharge. Double up the batteries and you’d have 120V Max (108V nominal) at 20A discharge, which would best what you can get from a typical 15A AC outlet.
So for say a 10″ table saw, maybe M18 x 2, or 120V Max (FlexVolt x 2), we could very well see dual power options. It would be extremely convenient and user-friendly.
andy
Do you have a link to these tests? Are you sure those aren’t at 60V? The cells are capable of 60A bursts each. At that draw their voltage drops to around 3.2 when fully charged. So that’s a 2880 watt peak. Comparable to corded. Even a 15A circuit can supply that wattage for a second or so due to the trip characteristics of a breaker.
Stuart
Not that I can find, the details were in emailed press materials.
“Runs cooler than Milwaukee® 9Ah Battery (48-11-1890)**”
“**On average, the Milwaukee® 48-11-1890 Battery temperature rises 50% faster during a constant 60 amp discharge up to a 70°C thermal shutdown.”
I followed up with questions about how this was determined. It was a constant current test, and so 60A was sustained.
Let’s assume 20V at max voltage x 60A = 1200W sustained. That’s not quite comparable to AC, but things get complicated when trying to draw apples to apples comparisons. For one, how much engineering has went into cordless power tools motors in the past 5-10 years? AC tool motors?
Some cordless tools these days are achieving corded-like power, maybe not in terms of theoretical wattage (honestly, I’m not sure), but in regard to application speeds and performance.
18V-class tools don’t seem to be on par with AC tools just yet. The new High Output battery packs could very well change that.
With Dewalt FlexVolt, I didn’t test it before donating my miter saw sample, but I’ve heard that it performs slightly better in cordless mode than corded, with the theory that this is because it can ask for more power from 2x FlexVolt battery packs than an AC outlet.
andy
That all sounds accurate. The Milwaukee cells are about tapped at 20A each, and the 20700 DeWalt cells are just fine.
Diplomatic Immunity
See this is what interests me in deciding on which battery platform to look at in the future seeing as how Makita is lagging behind in this flexvolt/customize/amp wars that seems to be going on between Dewalt and Milwaukee. IF power outputs greater than plugged in tools can be achieved then it could change how certain tools are used in the future.
Thomas J Carey
The first gen Milwaukee 9.0 did get hotter. Look up the new ones, and the 12.0 though. The 12.0 uses a new system that can pull power from each battery independently instead of “from the last battery” in each bank which causes the typical thermal increase. There is a video you can find with infra red camera showing them all and the new batteries are much more evenly heated, but also less heated than the dewalts . Reducing heat also prolongs runtime of each charge.
Stuart
I don’t doubt that. The 18650 3.0Ah cells used in the 9.0Ah pack have much lower current ratings (15A if I recall correctly). When I talked to Milwaukee about this, they said that thermal management and pack design can allow them to almost disregard on-paper specs.
I’ll have to look into what you said about “last battery” vs. “each battery.”
When FlexVolt came out and Milwaukee ran a counter-marketing campaign, for lack of a better word, I looked closely at both systems and determined that FlexVolt was the better forward-looking system. https://toolguyd.com/dewalt-flexvolt-vs-milwaukee-m18-high-demand/
At the time, 9.0Ah provided a right-now benefit, but I wasn’t convinced that it was a huge benefit, or that it would herald the next generational leap in cordless power tool tech.
At the media event when 9.0Ah HD batteries were first announced, they were outlasting XC batteries on certain tools, which had been turning off due to over-temp condition.
Nathan
diablo has a set of 8.5 blades now. Presumably started because of the Dewalt flexvolt device.
just like with my 10 inch I could see wanting a XX tooth combo style blade and maybe if I did alot of cross cuts a XX tooth blade. maybe 40t combo and 60 tooth fine cut whatever it works out too.
On my 10 I have a 24 tooth ripper, 50 tooth combo and a 80 tooth fine but it shares space on my 10 inch mitre saw. I don’t cross cut much on my table saw.
fred
Maybe look at a Forrest blade:
https://www.amazon.com/Forrest-WW08Q407100-Woodworker-32-Inch-Circular/dp/B000OMNBY6
KokoTheTalkingApe
Ooh, I want one of these so bad! But I don’t even have space for one.
Re blade, I think a thin-kerf from Forrest or similar would be ideal. Less load on the battery in exchange for maybe more blade vibration and lower feed rates.
“And this was all based on how it performed with a 5.0Ah battery pack. I can’t wait to see what it can do when paired with the 12.0Ah pack that it was designed for.” The smaller batter should perform the same, just for not as long, isn’t that right?
Stuart
I’d expect to see faster speeds or greater power capacity with the 12Ah pack. Much greater power capacity.
High loads might push a 5Ah battery into thermal shutdown.
Does Forrest make 8-1/4″ blades? I meant more in lines of Dewalt vs. Milwaukee.
Milwaukee has some new ones out, but I hadn’t requested them in this size (yet).
https://toolguyd.com/new-milwaukee-circular-saw-and-miter-saw-blades/
fred
I linked to the Forrest 8-1/4 inch blade above
My vote is with them or Freud.
I like Forrest because they will re-sharpen their blades
KokoTheTalkingApe
Ah, thermal shutdown. Makes sense. Because otherwise, I think with the same voltage and assuming the same amp draw, the two batteries should do the job just as quickly. The smaller battery would quit sooner, of course.
And if that were the case, it might make more sense sometimes to get two smaller batteries rather than one big one (assuming they cost about the same as the big one). You could charge one while using the other.
Doresoom
The 21700 cells in the new 6Ah and 12Ah batteries can support a much higher amp draw than the 18650 cells are rated for as well. The Milwaukee product manager told me they’re pulling “hundreds of amps” from the new 12Ah (presumably ~200A for very short durations), so the current output won’t necessarily be the same as what the 5Ah is supplying to the tool.
Otherwise it would be a little silly to move to such a huge battery when you could just carry two smaller ones as you mention.
KokoTheTalkingApe
Makes sense! So the ability to deliver amps more quickly _allows_ one to work faster, but doesn’t automatically mean it will.
Stuart
Correct.
Consider an average person and a body builder, lifting apples. They can both lift an apple equally as well.
Two apples? No difference.
Ten apples? There might be a difference after a couple minutes of lifting.
A bag of fifty apples?
A fifty pound apple-shaped block of cement?
Amp-hours and watt-hours can tell us how much total work a battery pack can do. The design and engineering of a battery pack determines how fast that power can be delivered to a tool, as well as how hot it gets during operation.
The yeti
Guess being a home user. I just do not see the want for a battery operated table saw. Any time i am cutting sheet goods i have power . I wish the tool companies would focus on cut accuracy. Ease of operation. Life of product. User safety. The list goes on. Battery operated versions of table top tools are not currently on my shopping list .
Chrisk
Being kind of in the same boat I did get the Milwaukee 10” Fuel miter. Love it, having a Kapex in my shop is the bomb but having the Milwaukee as a second saw and being able to work outdoors on projects is a real win win for me. Truthfully though, I don’t see spending the cash on the contractor saw as I do most of the stuff I’d use this one for, with my track saw. But…a miter was a real big game changer for me.
fred
I have yet to see a tool that does not represent some sort of compromise or trade-off. It might be size, or cost, or power or longevity, or functionality/capabilities or safety or noise or dust control … or I could go on and on. The question for a battery-powered table saw is whether it meets the needs of a reasonably-sized market segment. The tool makers obviously want you to like what they are selling – and creating a new class of tool (battery-powered jobsite table saws) has potential for them in increased sales – of both the saws and batteries capable of powering them.
Jared
I’d be using this type of tool exclusively at home too – but I still see value in having it be cordless. I already have a corded table-saw and don’t use it enough to bother replacing it with something like this. However, if I were buying all over again I probably would spring for it. Cords are a minor inconvenience, but an inconvenience all the same.
If you have a shop or garage where your saw is easily accessible, then this might not contribute much. I often wheel or drag my stationary tools out of the garage to work outside. Cordless would save a step. Plus if they were all cordless, I would be more tempted to set up right next to whatever I was working on in those instances where I’m repairing an outbuilding or fence etc.
fred
For almost 40 years I used my Unisaw – in my basement shop as my primary saw. A high ceiling in the basement and big Bilco doors providing outside access helped make that shop practical. Then in 2009, I bought a Bosch 4100DG-09 jobsite saw – anticipating retirement from my businesses and work at the kids’ houses. I thought that it would be folded up on its gravity-rise stand – stored in the garage and be moved out when needed. Soon I found that more and more – some of my 3 car garage was permanently being used for this saw and for a GCM12SD miter saw that I bought in 2013 to replace an older miter saw that I gave away to a son-in-law. A few months later, I bought a TS55REQ track saw – and found that it became my tool of choice for cutting sheet goods. The Unisaw still gets used – but no longer as much.
Curtis
On a portable saw like this I can see where it would be an advantage. It’s just a few minutes less set up time, but for a small job that makes a difference. I’ve got better miter saws than my Ryobi cordless, but because it’s so small, handy and cordless, it’s the one I use 3 out of 4 times. Likewise, I can see where a small cordless table saw would get used a lot more because it’s not competing with a corded table saw, but rather with a circular saw and a chalk line.
NoDeuces
Makita version with 10″ blade please
MT_Noob
I thought at first that the saw was at the school, and that your kids were at the best pre-school ever…
: )
Stuart
Ha! Sorry, I changed that part to better wording.
adam
Don’t want the little kids tripping over a cord when they are ripping OSB. just an accident waiting to happen 😀
I got a 12ah with one of the new tools, and I think I was getting more power out of my Gen1 Fuel blower with it. I didn’t have a 9ah charged to compare, but I could swear it sounded more powerful. Will be doing some more comparing later this weekend.
Framer joe
Contractors, framers and remodelers want cordless tools,saws hybrid if possible..at home (diy) guys have power..
On the jobsite,power is usually not available, especially for new construction.
One could have up to a dozen subcontractors all trying to use the same temporary power…if even available…
Cords, safety are a big concern and huge osha fines if cords are not in “new condition”..
As far as this Milwaukee table saw, it will suffer the same fate as all Milwaukee HD tools or ho tools…thermal overload at jobsite heavy use… Nothing can match Flexvolt power , while the tool is not even working hard at 60/54 v..vs..18v tools…it’s proven time and time again
fred
Every job can be different – that’s what makes the world go ’round. On some hi-rise jobs temporary power was plentiful on some elevations – even could set up heavy machinery (Unisaws or big pipe benders) in the basement. On rural home sites – we’d bring portable generators, engine-driven compressors etc. On some sites there were noise restrictions or emission restrictions – so no generators allowed. For our remodeling business – some homes had adequate circuits – others not so much. Building a folly – 1000 feet in back of a house was not a place you could run an extension cord – nor did we like snaking extension cords or hoses up onto staging.
Tim E.
How about using the Milwaukee before making such claims. I think if a company produced a product that does nothing but go into thermal overload with job site use at the rate you imagine, they wouldn’t be in business for long. This is the same unfounded DeWalt is better stuff you were posting on the NPS thread comments as well. Use both, and acknowledge bias.
I know you didn’t like the math last time, but the fact is both flexvolt 12Ah and Milwaukee 12Ah HO batteries have the same power output potential. Neither DeWalt nor Milwaukee make their own battery cells, they get them from manufacturers like Samsung or LG. And both 12Ah packs have the same form factor and number of cells in them, and the top cells from most companies in that size have very similar specs.
Stuart made some great observations on pros and cons of using 18V vs. 60V, but at the end of the day, the batteries can both supply a tool with the same amount of wattage. If the flexvolt saw isn’t overloading the batteries at pro level use, the Milwaukee shouldn’t either, personal opinions aside.
I’m not a pro user by any stretch, but I do have the flexvolt table saw, and it has its issues. I let my robotics students use it building our practice field, ripping down plywood. It bogged down pretty often from their unskilled and abusive usage, but did make it through the cuts, and never cut out for thermal overload. Actually, that’s disappointing since it means DeWalt could have done more to pull more power out of the battery pack and make a stronger saw, so that it could do those tougher cuts better but shut down if you were really abusing it. This sounds oxymoronic and I’m sure will get taken the wrong way, but I want to see tools that can be driven to protection conditions under abusive use (but not regular continuous pro use). That signals to me that the designers were pushing the tools and batteries to their maximum performance potential.
I’m waiting to get my Milwaukee table saw since that’s my main platform, and I’ll get rid of the flexvolt, but being honest I expect the Milwaukee to perform exactly the same. So I’m not singing the flexvolt saw at all, just sticking with my platform. The ability to use my army of existing 5Ah and 9Ah batteries if needed is a plus though. Under heavy loads like from abusive students, it is going to struggle a bit, probably more so on the 5Ah batteries. That’s the trade off of a one-battery cordless saw with today’s technology.
Two batteries means twice the power potential, which DeWalt got right with their miter saw. Even Makita with their x2 platform, given the same batteries, suddenly you can make a tool with twice the power of a one battery solution. Makita’s issue is they’re still catching up on battery technology, so their x2 roughly matches flexvolt or Milwaukee HO. Milwaukee’s issue is they don’t want to do 2 battery tools. DeWalt’s issue is they aren’t doing it as much as I want, and they are focusing their expertise doing it at the expense of compatibility.
I think in the long run, Dewalt’s two battery tools are going to win if you want hybrid 120V AC options, at the expense of compatibility, due to the (relative) simplicity of just using a rectifier on mains voltage on those dual flexvolt tools. Makita’s style of 36V x2 tools (which I think is what Milwaukee will copy eventually for compatibility purposes – can still use two regular batteries rather than needing special batteries) will win for compatibility, at the expense of hybrid options. Converting 120V to 36V takes a voltage transformer, which by rule gets bigger and heavier the more current you need to pull through it. I don’t think any company is going to go that route, they’ll kee their 36V tools as pure cordless with no hybrid option.
Both paths I think are reasonable and viable paths forward. Short term, or for DIY use, the hybrid option might be better, though the compatibility loss can’t be ignored. Long term, I think hybrid is going to be less important as cordless tools surpass what a power outlet can deliver, especially for pro use, since you wouldn’t be able to plug it in anyway without taking a performance hit. As Stuart alluded to, you can already see this with the DeWalt miter saws, despite having slightly higher voltage from the mains, they don’t run quite as well on mains power as they do on batteries. Increase the performance of the tool even more to match the potential of these new 12Ah batteries, and you might even already be beyond where it would make sense to provide hybrid power, just because the outlet can’t even come close to the 2x12Ah performance.
Tim E.
* dinging the flexvolt saw
Framer joe
The fact your not a pro explains everything….it’s ridiculous talking to you home users that know absolutely nothing but looking at numbers……
Your so completely ignorant of ..real world use of tools,that it’s staggering…
Use it first ? Milwaukee made the exact same claim about their previous circ saw with a 9 ah on it..that is was better then the flexvolt 575 with a 6 ah on it…. total BS…the Milwaukee circ couldn’t rip lvl without shutting down never mind a day of it or a week,month,year….. Milwaukee claims are the largest lies in the industry…
….for you any tool will do, for professionals using tools 7 days week framing, building etc..we know what works and a bunch of facts on a piece of paper can’t change it….dude you’d be laughed off any framing job with that BS talk…..I welcome you to any job I’m on to prove it, got a boatload of cash you want to loose?
…..a 10min you tube video is not a real days work…and ya all of their tools shut down when pushed hard…..
Stuart
People have different experiences and expectations, and that’s okay.
Marketing claims should always be taken with a grain of salt until proven for a particular user’s environment and conditions.
Using certain cordless power tools in a cool basement is going to be different than in August mid-day heat and peak sun.
In theory, a 54V battery pack with 4.0Ah charge capacity could very well outlast an 18V battery pack with 12.0Ah charge capacity. Or it might not. It depends on a lot of things, mostly how the tools and battery packs are engineered.
Ideally, brands should get tools right the first time, but sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they get things wrong, and make changes over time, or they might even go back to the drawing board. Other times, a tool is done well, but technology over time results in improvements and revisions.
Milwuakee’s M18 10″ miter saw? It’s an okay saw, but I think that it delivered less than what a lot of people expected. Sometimes that’s inevitable.
Look what happened with Dewalt’s brushless circular saw – they produced a couple tens of thousands of units before redesigning it with a rafter hook. Makita recently came out with a completely different pin nailer.
With Milwaukee’s first Fuel circular saw, perhaps their market research showed that most users would want to cut dimensional lumber, and would reach for a worm drive saw for cutting lvl.
Maybe they could have made it more powerful, but at the expense of performance or runtime when using XC battery packs instead of HD.
andy
Well, I am a pro, though I only tend to work 5 days a week. I’ve made millions with my DeWalt, Milwaukee, Makita, Bosch, and a Ridgid and Ryobi in there too. Honestly, they’re all pretty comparable.
I’ll give you DeWalt’s rear handle saw is the benchmark though, but I’ll point out that DeWalt has some awful marketing of its own. Max voltages are forgivable, but they print false watt-hour ratings right on their battery. That’s an empirically measurable figure, no fudging possible, and they inflate it.
Tim E.
I’m gonna respectfully disagree with you there Joe. Home users definitely have a different viewpoint, but don’t jump to assuming we know nothing beyond looking at numbers. I’m merely using the numbers to illustrate points for claims that are based on real world experience with various tools of both flavors, in settings not all unlike professional use. Just because my tool use is volunteering my time for Habitat or for my robotics team and isn’t making my livelihood with them, don’t think for a second that I don’t push my tools as hard as a pro does, or that I don’t expect the same level of performance that a pro would. Or even that I’m not using them continuously; most of my tools, especially during robotics season, are going hard for hours every night and all day every weekend for a couple months straight. The team owns DeWalt, I own Milwaukee. I’d take the newest tools from either of them to any job, anywhere, and have zero worry about the tools doing their jobs and making it through, much less getting laughed at.
Pros know how to use tools. They’ll push them hard, sure, very hard even, but they know what they’re doing. People who don’t know what they are doing are even worse. They’ll push the tool beyond hard and into abuse territory, and getting through a day of that without giving up for a break is where the real test is for me. You want to see if a tool can make it through a day or week or whatever of pro use, take it to a Habitat for Humanity jobsite for a friday-saturday-sunday go. About half the folks who show up to those, and the ones that really want to use the power tools, are the ones who don’t know how to use them, or haven’t used them before. After a solid weekend of 100+ Texas heat, full sun, and that kind of abuse, any tool that can stay standing would be able to make it on a pro jobsite. All of the big three and above can. Ridgid, Hitachi, I haven’t seen. Ryobi can’t quite, although their new brushless stuff for the most part can, and is really pushing the envelope for performance from a value brand. Kobalt and Porter Cable both can’t make it through.
I’m in no way saying the 575 isn’t a great saw. Nor am I saying that the first generation 7.25″ Fuel circular wasn’t a little underwhelming comparatively. But that Fuel saw (2731) came out in late 2014. The DCS575 didn’t come out until mid to late 2016. Now Milwaukee is catching up in mid to late 2018. I wouldn’t be surprised if the new Milwaukee actually can beat the 575, just because of the extra 2 years of cordless tool R&D that has happened in the interim. Similarly, I’m not surprised the 575 beats the 2731 because of a similar 2 years of R&D difference.
I’ve had my Milwaukee drills overload on me, I’ve had brand new top of the line DeWalt drills that were donated to the robotics team overload doing the same job. I’ve bogged down my Milwaukee circular saws plenty, I’ve bogged down the flexvolt table saw plenty. I’ve also seen the little M12 circular make it through a full day of cutting 2x4s for blocking because nobody else at Habitat that day had a saw. The miter saw that was on the site was broken, and I just happened to have the M12 in the back of my car from another project. 2 people measuring, 4 people marking and setting, one guy cutting continuously, and the rest of us shooting the blocks in place, the saw chewed through the batteries pretty good, but it kept going for a solid 6 hours of texas heat without quitting.
The bottom line is forget the facts as you want, plenty of pros make their living in the most demanding environments using Milwaukee, plenty use DeWalt, plenty use Makita, and plenty use whatever happens to be on site, whether it’s blue or lime green or bright orange. With the possible exception of bright orange, they all get it done anymore. Sure, some will be better for specific types of crews.
DeWalt’s forte has always been carpentry, so they are what I would carry if I did strictly framing. Milwaukee has plumbing and electrical down, if you were on a plumbing crew instead of a framing crew, you’d be singing a different tune. Makita gets the masonry and metalworking side, along with Metabo. They all have their strong points, they all have weak points. Milwaukee is trying to catch up to DeWalt’s strong points in their saws. DeWalt is trying to catch up to Milwaukee on plumbing. DeWalt needs to not sit on its laurels since their flexvolt table saw isn’t exactly a shining star, Milwaukee may very well leapfrog them with this one.
MakitaRulz
Still laughing at the fact that the author thinks his new 10lb 12ah 18v battery will have more power than his 5.0ah one. It will run twice as long, but still the same power output. Just don’t get it wet. Milwaukee batteries are like gremlins when they get wet. Side note. They make great canoe anchors.
Stuart
Sorry, but you’re completely wrong.
First, the 12Ah pack has 15 cells. That means it’s capable of greater current delivery.
Second, the 12Ah pack has larger cells. That also increases the amount of current it can deliver.
Let’s say that a 5.0Ah battery pack is connected to the new table saw, and is used for a long series of heavy cutting operations. It’s going to run hot. Connect the 12.0Ah battery pack. At the same power demand, the 12.0Ah battery will run cooler. A cooler-running battery usually means greater charge capacity. With heavy prolonged use, a 5.0Ah XC battery might suffer an over-temp condition and turn off. The 12.0Ah would handle such power demands with greater ease.
That all said, Milwaukee has said that certain tools will take advantage of the new batteries’ greater power capacity. That would be congruent with the slight power boost certain tools see when going from compact batteries to XC packs, or from XC to High Demand.
Here’s some follow-up reading: https://toolguyd.com/revisiting-what-amp-hour-means-cordless-power-tool-batteries/
TonyT
I’m impressed by how patient you are.
Reality is always more complex than simple rules – as you note, internal details such as number of cells in parallel and max current per cell matter.
It’s also true that within a reasonable range, for a given motor configuration, motor voltage doesn’t matter, because a higher voltage winding will have higher resistance (and, for brushless motors, the high voltage drive electronics (MOSFET or IGBT) have higher resistance, too), so overall power works out about the same.
So Milwaukee is correct that for a properly designed tool, a higher current approach can work as well as a higher voltage approach.
Stuart
Thanks! Practice, I think.
I try to remind myself to respond to everyone else who might be reading the discussion.
ToolOfTheTrade
Milwaukee says a lot of shit that’s far from the truth. Same goes for every power tool company that has a marketing department. And I don’t consider what they had on display at their symposium to be a real work situation. An unrealistic 2 minute demonstration don’t mean much of shit. But are you telling me that if I’m using a 3ah battery with my circ saw and I put in a 6ah battery that my saw will become more powerful? Thats exactly what I did today and my Dewalt saw cut with the same amount of power while ripping 1x cuts for window trim. Bigger cells doesn’t give the motor more power or horsepower or energy whether it’s a 2ah or a 12ah battery. It might run cooler and longer, but that’s all it can do. Let me guess, this a claim by Milwaukee’s marketing department because they know flexvolt has kicked their ass and will continue to kick their ass and they’re embarrassed about it so they can only respond with a 12ah battery that they claim will make the motor stronger when you use only 12ah hd batteries. A mutant motor that grows when you use 12ah hd batteries. Really? Damn.
andy
More or bigger cells means more power, if the motor is big enough. Small battery starves the motor for power.
An analogy is an undersized fuel pump that can only provide 10 GPH. You’ll never get more than about 100 HP, even if you have a 400 HP engine.
Tim E.
Yes and no. It depends greatly on what battery packs you’re talking about specifically. The DCB200 20V Max 3.0Ah battery pack uses two rows of 5 LGDAHB41865 cells (18650 form factor). Those cells are rated for 30A max continuous discharge, and two parallel sets gives you a max 60A discharge rating from the pack. The DCB206 20V Max 6.0Ah battery pack uses two rows of 5 Panasonic NCR20700A cells (20700 form factor). Those cells are also rated for 30A discharge, so two rows gives you a 60A discharge rating from the pack. Thus, they’ll both perform the same, and you shouldn’t see any difference. In this case, you are correct, even though the 6Ah cells are a larger form factor and larger capacity, they aren’t actually rated for any more current.
However, 30A discharge is about the maximum you can get from 18650 form factor cells. Which is why companies are going to the 20700 and 21700 form factor cells. They have more headroom for higher discharge currents, along with higher capacities. The new DeWalt (and Milwaukee) 12Ah batteries are using 21700 cells, in 3 rows of 5. I can’t find specifically what cells are in them, but a possibility is the Samsung 40T 21700s, which are ALSO rated for 30A continuous discharge. But what sets the 12Ah batteries apart is the 3rd row of cells, so instead of 2x30A (60A), they can supply 3x30A (90A).
You would see a similar difference going from a slim pack to a full height pack. For example, the DeWalt DCB230 is also built with 20700 form factor cells like the 6Ah pack, just one row of them instead of two. So the slim pack can deliver 1x30A (30A), while the 6Ah pack can deliver 2x30A (60A). So you’ll definitely see a difference there, particularly on higher power tools. You’ll be able to see a difference going from a 6Ah pack to a large 3-row pack like the 9Ah or 12Ah as well, again particularly on the higher power tools. 60A to 90A is only a 150% difference though, while 30A to 60A is a 200% difference.
Now the kicker, the lower the capacity of the battery, the higher current discharge it can usually handle. For example, the Samsung 30T 21700 cell is rated for 35A discharge, but is only 3Ah capacity, while the 40T is rated for only 30A, but is 4Ah capacity. Going further up, the Samsung 48G cell is 4.8Ah capacity, but is only rated for ~5A continuous discharge for optimum cycle life, and 9.6A maximum continuous discharge. So well below the 30A the lower capacity cells are rated for This is the forefront of battery technology. The 18650 cells were the standard for a long time, and took a long time to get to the capacity and performance they have today, but now they just can’t squeeze any more out of them. The 21700 are still somewhat in their infancy, so their capacity and performance will continue to increase just like the 18650 cells did. This is why we’re seeing 9Ah and 12Ah batteries start to hit the market, using these new cells at ever higher capacity. When we get to 15Ah cells, it’ll likely be using 21700 (or maybe 20700) cells. We just have to wait for the technology to get the capacity and current delivery to that point.
DeWalt 6Ah flexvolt batteries operate on the 3×5 cell layout, just like the 9Ah, so they can deliver the same or maybe more current than the 9Ah batteries, likewise the 9Ah can deliver the same or maybe more current than the 12Ah batteries. What’s interesting is the Milwaukee 6Ah High Output batteries are using a 2×5 cell layout, so they’re only getting the 2x multiplier instead of the 3x. They must be using some beefy cells in those 6Ah packs to be able to supply the same current as the 12Ah packs. There’s also theoretically nothing stopping Milwaukee from rebuilding a new 9Ah pack using the newer spec’d batteries, and making them High Output capable.
On the Milwaukee side, the old 9Ah batteries are built with LG 18650 cells, purportedly the HG2 cells, which are rated for 20A discharge. So the “old” 9Ah batteries can only supply 60A, though using 3 rows they can do it a bit cooler and thus a bit more efficiently than other packs. That also leaves more headroom for higher non-continuous current spikes, which is what makes certain tools perform better using them, during high current spikes. But really they aren’t rated to supply any more current than the DeWalt 3Ah or 6Ah packs I listed.
So yes, Milwaukee is claiming, and rightly so, that by adding an extra row of cells, they can increase their current delivery capacity by 1.5x over any 2-row packs (which most of theirs are), and also 1.5x over their 9Ah packs because of the lower rated cells in those packs. The Milwaukee 12Ah batteries would supply the same amount of current as the DeWalt Flexvolt 6Ah, 9Ah, and 12Ah packs. So no gain on either side from that perspective, this just catches Milwaukee up to Flexvolt power output.
P.S. For comparison, a 15A 120V wall outlet can supply ~1800 Watts of power. These 12Ah and flexvolt packs can all supply 90A @ 18V nominal, so 1620 Watts continuously, with no danger of tripping a breaker. If we were to use the Samsung 30T cells rated at 35A, they’d be able to supply 105A @ 18V nominal, so 1890 Watts continuously. We’re in and above wall outlet territory! Plus batteries have a better capability to sustain currents higher than their rated continuous spec for short durations, which actually makes them superior to wall outlets.
P.P.S. If we just moved to Europe, their household plugs are rated 16A at 220V, so they can provide 3520 Watts continuously.
andy
You pretty much nailed all the details. Do we know that DeWalt is using 21700 cells in their 12AH battery, and not the slightly inferior Sanyo 20700b 4 AH cells to fit their form factor?
Tim E.
I have not been able to confirm it anywhere, but that’s my semi-educated guess. The NCR20700B 4Ah cells are only rated at 15A (20A depending on where you look) continuous discharge, so even 3 strings would only give that battery a 45A discharge rating, 60A using the 20A number, so the same or lower than a regular 2 string battery. There are then the NCR20700As 3.3Ah 30A, which would make the current but don’t make the 12Ah total, and the NCR2070Cs at 3.5Ah which are rated for 35A, but again don’t make the 12Ah.
There’s just not a lot at the 4Ah capacity that I can find in either 20700 or 21700 size with the discharge ratings they need. Really the only ones I can find are the Samsung 40T ones. LG only has the HG6, a 20650 3Ah 30A cell, Sanyo/Panasonic only have the ones you listed. Efest has a 3.7Ah cell with a sufficient 35A current rating; maybe the 11.1Ah is fudged up to 12Ah. Sony doesn’t even have the larger cells widely available. Tesla is churning out 21700s, though they seem to be all going to the cars still.
I guess it’s more impressive for marketing purposes to make a 12Ah battery since it can still do the needed 90A output than a 10.5Ah battery that can do 105A. DeWalt just needed to line up with their existing flexvolt batteries, which that cell does. Milwaukee went with 2 rows it looks like in their 6Ah HO batteries, so a lower current rated 12Ah battery likely made it easier to find 3Ah cells that can supply comparable current.
Chris
From what I can tell DeWalt is using 21700 in the 9ah and 12 ah, the 6ah xr and the yellow top 3ah compacts… They have a black top 3ah compact with a black top going out in drill kits using 20700s…
Stuart
Are you sure about the cells being different in the black 3Ah’s? I was told that black vs. yellow is just a color difference.
“No difference between the yellow and the black except for the color.”
Kirk
I’m thinking milwaukee may be using the 20700b cells with all the over heating and shut down
Doresoom
Higher amp hour batteries that use more sets of cells in parallel can supply more current to the tool. More current = more power. Sometimes with tasks that aren’t really taxing for the tool you won’t be able to feel it, but put a high enough load on the tool and you’ll be able to tell.
I got in this same discussion last month and proved it with a video using M12 batteries, but it’s true for other battery platforms as well: https://youtu.be/SDIoKAiESNQ
Stuart
It might not necessarily be true with other platforms. I’ll have to check my inbox or notes, but I asked at least one other brand, and was told that their higher-count battery packs don’t provide their tools with boosts in power.
With Milwaukee, they have always been open about XC battery packs providing a small boost in power, ~10% if I recall correctly, but only for certain tools, such as drills and cutting tools.
Other tools, such as impact drivers, won’t see an increase in power.
Doresoom
Good point about it may not be true for all other battery platforms. I know it’s true for Ryobi as well, since I tested water lift on their 3 gallon shopvac with a 2Ah and 4Ah battery. The 2Ah got 34″ of water lift, and the 4Ah got 38″ of water lift. The 2Ah was a newer battery than the 4Ah too.
Curtis
The other issue is the amperage required, V*A=W. With a lower voltage you need more amps to get the same power and more amperage requires more thicker wires, so an 18V high output tool will need to be heavier than a 54V tool with the same power output.
TonyT
Not really…basically, a given amount of wire (copper/aluminum) is needed to create the desired magnetic field, either less, thicker wire (with lower voltage, higher current, and less resistance) or more, thinner wire (with higher voltage, lower current, and less resistance).
For example, look at the spec sheet for some industrial servo motors here http://anaheimautomation.com/products/brushless/brushless-motor-item.php?sID=150&pt=i&tID=96&cID=22
For a given length (stack size) and rated speed the motor’s performance and weight is very close. For example, look at the bottom 3 motors (BLY344y-xxxV-3000/3200), with voltages of 48V, 160V, and 240V: the power, torque, speed, and weight are all very close.
(BTW, choosing servo motors is part of my job)
TonyT
Oops…for higher voltage, it’s higher resistance wire (e.g. 0.07 ohm for 48V to 2.40 ohm at 240V)
Alfredo M. Claussen
It is true that on a given size motor or coil, the copper quantity is similar… but heating losses in conductors follow the I2R law… therefore, a lower current will always help. That is the reason for having higher and higher voltages in larger and larger industrial motors, ans small motor are no different.
A noticeable improvement in tools (albeit a costly one), would be to use hexagonal section magnet wire in the windings, which reaches a higher packing factor. My own experience about volatage and copper winding packing, was when I found my Kärcher pressure washer lacking effective washing power, taking about the same time to wash my midsize car. When I complained to a Kärcher technician at an Expo… He accepted my cpmplaint, and went on to reveal that when Kärcher converted their corded washers from the 230 VAC in Germany to the 120 VAC in USA, the effective washing power went down noticeably.
So, because their then largest AC power pressure washer was discontinued (the K520M), my decision was to go to a gasoline powered washer; more finicky and noisy, but at least I got a much faster and powerful washing. The Kärcher technician told me that even with 220 V supply we have here, instead of the full 230 V on Germany, the same model washer was notably more powerful than their “american” voltage version, and that the explanation was due to both a lower heating losses in the windings thaks to lower current, and also because the thinner wire on the European versions was more closely packed in the windings, as the coils had a higher copper content due to smaller void volume.
Andrew
I build trailers for a living we have mikita dewalt and Milwaukee tools both corded I’ve used the all dewalt I don’t like 3 reasons the gears in their battery tools are plastic ( I’ve pulled them out of a drill a 3/8impact and sawzall) absolute garbage the batteries connection the power will quickly eat through the connection prongs to the tool and the grip is unwieldy and uncomfortable when using 8hrs a day this matters maybe with wood this would be acceptable but steel not so much. Mikita I’m not gonna even try we sent those back on day 2. Milwaukee I’ve been using the same set for 6 months now with 5.0ah batteries they last 3 days hard use the just don’t wanna freakin for believe me I tried and very well designed grip made by days much easier now yes the down side these tools while tough are not indestructible and the warranty could be easier to honour. However with that being said I still bought the m18 series as my personal tool kit and would gladly recommend them to anyone. I have a m18 drill, 1/4 in impact driver a drill hammer drill come a circ saw sawzall jobsite radio 2 lights 15 ga nailgun that’s in a league of it’s own. I am looking forward to my expansions in the future
Corey
Claiming that 5.0ah batteries last you 3 days hard use releases you from any credibility, friend. Either a blatant lie, or your definition of hard use is extremely inaccurate.
fred
My definition of hard use (maybe what were we thinking use) – is breaking the teeth off your backhoe bucket.
5Ah consumption over 3 days of use – does seem like a light-duty application.
Stuart
I took it to mean hard applications, which don’t necessarily involve continued use.
andy
Yes. For example, I complete about $5000 of work every day with my crew of 3. Some of it is pretty hard work. But a battery might last me a few days depending on what kind of work. The sledgehammer, for example, does not drain the M18 batteries 🙂
Roy
That’s a red DeWalt. Same table casting, fence, controls, under saw blade housing.
Alfredo M. Claussen
MANY “competing brands” tool models are only cosmetically different! (same or almost identically tooled factories in China)…
Kirk
I’m waiting for these other big name brands to release a similar 120v adapter like the one Metabo HTP released last year, but then they wouldn’t sell any batteries, at least there wouldn’t be a need for multiple HD batteries. I skimmed through comments , I don’t think anyone mentioned this
https://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/metabo-hpt-et36am