A reader wrote in this morning, with a link an interesting story. (Thank you, Eric!) It seems that an individual on Reddit had listed Bosch tools on Amazon, as used, and someone claiming to be a lawyer for Bosch Tools NA had threatened them with a lawsuit.
It seems that this is not the first time something like this has happened. In the discussion thread on Reddit, someone linked to a story about a similar occurrence that took place 4-1/2 years ago. That older incident was different, as the seller acknowledged that they had listed the Bosch product as new.
Sidestepping for a moment, Bosch Tools has “Certified Online Partners” and a few years ago they added a banner to Amazon product listings to help promote these sellers.
Bosch’s notice says that they do not guarantee the quality or authenticity of products purchased from non-authorized resellers on Amazon.
That’s one way they sought to protect the interests of their dealer network, and it appears this is another.
The letter that the Redditor says was sent to them specifically complains about the seller’s “improper and tortious sale and commercial distribution of Bosch products.” Later in the letter, it say:
Unauthorized Resellers who induce Authorized Bosch Tools Distributors to sell Bosch Tools products to them for resale on the internet tortuously interfere with the Distributor Agreement.
As Bosch Tools has no record that it has authorized your business to resell its products on the internet, Bosch Tools demands that you discontinue your tortious conduct…
Looking at various listings on Amazon, there are quite a few tools that are listed by 3rd party sellers as “Used – Like New” with condition descriptions such as “Factory Sealed, Never Opened or Used.”
The Redditor says:
The thing that is bothering me is that I have these listed in used condition. Doesn’t the first sale doctrine allow me to sell these?
Over on Ebay, there are plenty of “Brand New” Bosch tools that are being sold by individual/3rd party sellers. It’s unknown as to whether Bosch is only seeking to stymie reselling on Amazon, or if the same warnings are being sent on other platforms as well.
Looking at Bosch’s side of things, I can understand why they’re trying to control who sells Bosch tools as new. Many resellers will buy promo-priced tools from authorized dealers and then flood them back into online marketplaces at inflated pricing. This typically hurts authorized dealers and users alike, and only really benefits those looking to turn a quick profit.
A second letter sent to the Redditor says:
Must we sue in relation to our previous correspondence to you?
Bosch has and will continue to file lawsuits against unauthorized resellers to protect the Bosch Authorized Reseller Network and its Brands.
We don’t know how many Bosch tools the Redditor is trying to sell. They did buy them from an authorized retailer, but their intent was unclear. Sometimes people buy tools specifically to resell, other times there are “buy this, get that” bonus combos that lead to unwanted tools or accessories.
Going only by the language in Bosch’s letters, it seems that they’re looking to protect the interests of their retailers.
A long time ago, I posted about a Bosch tool deal at one particular retailer after seeing it in their emailed newsletter, and this led to much drama because not all dealers were able to offer similar promos. Because of this, and one or two instances since then, I can definitely see this action by Bosch’s lawyers as a way to help ensure only authorized dealers are allowed to sell Bosch tools as new.
There are two ways to look at this situation.
A: Bosch is trying to stymie reselling and arbitrage where individuals buy from an authorized dealer and sell on online marketplaces such as Amazon.
B: Bosch lawyers accidentally sent their standard letters to someone who is not engaging in such practices.
I considered that perhaps Bosch’s lawyers sent the notice to this tool seller by mistake, or perhaps they’ve been a little too aggressive in their tactics.
This is what it says in seller’s Reddit post:
I’m selling a couple Bosch tools online and received a letter from a law firm stating I needed to remove these listings because I am not an authorized Bosch distributor. They have threatened to sue me if I do not comply.
Items were purchased from an authorized retailer (have receipts) so I know they are not counterfeit.
The seller also says:
I am not attempting to sell these as new.
The thread in question is in r/Flipping, a subReddit forum described as:
A place to discuss tactics and success stories of buying things for a low price and selling them for a higher one.
However this has no implication, as the Redditor’s user account was created one month ago and they have no other posts in r/Flipping. In other words, we don’t know if they are a reseller. There’s no indication that they “induced Authorized Bosch Tools Distributors to sell Bosch Tools products to them for resale on the internet.”
The consensus in the Reddit thread is that these are scare tactics, but Bosch’s lawyer also points to a prior incident where they did take an unauthorized seller to court over trademark infringement. I vaguely remember the seller too – they were a highly visible 3rd party seller on Amazon.
The Redditor says:
For Amazon, you cannot list products as new if they do not come from an authorized wholesaler/distributor. You likely will need to be an approved authorized distributor by the brand you are selling too.
You absolutely cannot buy an item from a retail store and list it as new on Amazon. Warranties are generally not valid if the product is not purchased from an authorized reseller. If the item you are selling does not have a warranty, than it is definitely not new.
I have the one Bosch product I have listed in used condition because I am not an authorized reseller for this brand….but I do not believe this prevents me from selling the item I have in used condition.
They seem familiar with reselling rules, and tried to abide by them.
My guess is that there has been a trend of resellers buying and reselling Bosch tools in “used: like-new” condition, and perhaps this particular seller was undeservingly red-flagged. It seems a bit harsh to be threatened with a lawsuit for selling “one Bosch product” in “used” condition, but we also don’t know closely their listing or seller profile fits potential patterns established by other resellers Bosch has been working to block.
On one hand, Bosch is threatening this Redditor over a used product listing, but on the other hand they’re trying to clean up Amazon marketplace reseller listings without making case by case exceptions.
Maybe this type of strict enforcement is why we haven’t heard of any tool scam stores involving Bosch tools yet?
This is an interesting occurrence, although we simply don’t know enough to take sides. Personally, I’m not a fan of aggressive reselling practices, but I’m also not a fan of scare tactics.
It is also important to note that Bosch is not the only brand seeking to block certain types of online marketplace listings. For instance, I have heard of Snap-on asking ebay to remove certain product listings. In this case, however, the demand was made to the seller directly.
Note: I am not a lawyer.
Note to self: avoid Bosch
What’s your reasoning?
Perhaps the article you wrote?
And what is the reasoning?
For me, this seemed like a “big bad company vs. some person”
issue, but it’s not so clear when you look at the context.
I think it’s good that Bosch is looking to deter certain reselling practices, but it’s not clear why they red-flagged this individual who says they listed the product as used.
It is just a natural reaction to the headline.
Does that mean that you didn’t read the actual story?
It should be on Bosch [or their legal team] to verify context before threatening legal action. I don’t like the idea of a massive corporation threatening legal action against one man for selling a used Bosch tool as a used Bosch tool. If you want goodwill for your brand, don’t threaten to sue your customers and put the onus on your customer to justify that their legal rights to resell used tools is in fact their legal right.
If you were selling a 57 chevy do you have to get approval from Chevrolet? I’ts that simple. What other of your possessions may be subject to this? If it’s listed as used, that should be the end of it.
I’m giving Bosch the benefit of the doubt is because this is in regard to a listing on Amazon.
If this was all about a craigslist posting or other similar classified ad where the seller clearly had their own imagery and descriptions, that’d be different and hard to imagine any justifications for.
Large corporations tend to like the free market as long as they can keep smaller concerns and individuals from competing In that they determine what the terms of the market are. Frankly I have zero sympathy for multinational companies when they cry foul. Also it’s clearly Amazon’s responsibility to protect their customers And Bosch makes power tools that don’t stack up to the other “pro” brands……so yeah.
In my opinion, companies have no right to controll what someone does with their product after they sell it, it is no longer their property. Obviously you can’t say you’re an authorized seller since that means the company has vetted you in some way but they have no right to prevent you from selling, repairing, modifying, etc. whatever you purchased. I wouldn’t likely avoid their products over this specific case, but it hurts their image in my eyes.
I kinda feel the same way. I don’t think bosch is being clear enough for why they’re threatening a lawsuit. It just seems shady to really go after people like this, especially if they’re listing the item as “used”. Is bosch trying to protect consumers from tool scams as mentioned in the article? Do they just not like unauthorized people, businesses from selling their tools? If so why? Was the Amazon seller price gouging/scalping?
I’m one to follow rules, I just really like to have it explained why what I’m doing is wrong. Not to be stubborn, but because I feel it helps me understand things from different points of view.
The way I see it, Bosch is just going to limit who there product reaches. Regardless if profits are going directly to bosch or not.
In my opinion it all comes down to one simple question: Is the seller claiming to be a factory authorized dealer? From what I could see the answer is no. And apparently the seller was very upfront about calling the tools “used”. I don’t see the problem, this sounds to me like Bosch being assholes.
I’d have no problem with them going after someone who was lying about being an authorized reseller, or for someone who was selling used tools as new, but I don’t see any fraud or misrepresentation here.
It could also depend on details in the listing, or other resellers’ practices.
I’d think that either Bosch’s team misidentified the seller’s listing, or the seller’s listing too closely matched characteristics of rightfully flagged reseller listings.
It’s also possible that they are aggressively targeting everyone outside of authorized dealers who are selling Bosch tools on Amazon, but if that’s the case there’d be more talk about it.
A few years ago Snap-on asked ebay to remove listings, and if I recall correctly it was because sellers were using Snap-on imagery and descriptions.
Of course it’s always possible there is more to it than we know. But I can only comment on what I have read, and thus far nobody has mentioned copyright violations so I can only assume that’s not what Bosch is complaining about.
The complaint from Bosch’s mouthpiece basically reads “we’re mad that you’re selling Bosch tools when you’re not an authorized Bosch dealer”. Well, there’s nothing illegal about anyone selling Bosch tools online or anywhere else, so long as they aren’t misrepresenting themselves as a factory authorized dealer, or committing any other sort of fraud like selling used or refurbs as new, or claiming there is a warranty when in reality there is none, etc. The seller claims the tools were listed as used condition, so assuming they are telling the truth and from I from what limited information I have I don’t see where Bosch has any sort of leg to stand on.
Copyright violations don’t apply here. Trademark violations could if the seller was using the Bosch name and logo in a way to suggest they are Bosch itself or an authorized seller of Bosch.
Unless they were using Bosch ad copy and the like; that would be a copyright violation.
Yes, using Bosch ad copy and images is what I was referring to. It was in reference to Stuart’s comment about Ebay sellers using “Snap-On imagery and descriptions”
Being 1 day removed from serving jury duty, I’ll take my stab at this. 🙂 I think it’s fairly easy to take sides. (Unless of course, as you mentioned, the letter was sent in error.)
While I agree with you Stuart, I don’t particularly care for aggressive resellers, this appears to be pretty cut and dry. The redditor has the right to sell the items as “Used” from a US law perspective. (I can’t speak to whether or not Amazon has an T&Cs that would prohibit.) Even if this guy (or anyone else) has 100 Bosch tools listed on Amazon as “Used” or even “Used – Like New,” I don’t see where Bosch has a legal leg to stand on.
If Bosch wants to curtail aggressive resellers, they need to do it at the Authorized Distributor level by imposing buying limits.
Also, to your Snap-On/Ebay point, while it’s a complete assumption on my part, I would guess that it was a former franchisee that had left over stock and trying to sell it on Ebay, and I would guess that violates the franchisee agreement. Or even more cut and dry, a current franchisee selling them, which I’m sure violates the franchisee agreement.
I wonder if Snap-on might be a little different because of their warranty policies too. E.g. I have the impression many people buy used Snap-on tools with the intention of taking advantage of the lifetime warranty, which they actually aren’t entitled to as a used tool purchaser.
Reselling Bosch is different though because you ought to be able to provide a proof of purchase in order to benefit from the warranty. Perhaps they had complaints from people seeking warranty coverage who bought “used-like new” Amazon product?
In my experience Snap-On will happily warranty their tools regardless of if you purchased them new or not. Snap-On tools are openly sold on Ebay right now, both new and used. I don’t know the whole story about what happened with Snap-On and Ebay years ago but it sounds like it was more of a copyright issue than anything else, i.e. people stealing photos and adcopy text, descriptions, etc. from Snap-On’s website and catalogs and using that for their Ebay listings.
(I am not a lawyer.)
I agree – the law typically allows for owners to sell physical items as “used.”
There doesn’t seem to be anything to disallow users from selling items as “used: like new, sealed in box” or similar.
But can you use the brand’s copyrighted images to do it? I’m thinking that this could be what flagged the seller’s listing.
Did the seller list one Bosch product, or are they reselling one Bosch product in addition to dozens of products from other brands?
Unless we know more, I’d give both parties the benefit of the doubt.
To my knowledge there’s not a way to list an item on Amazon and upload your own image, unless you apply for your own AISN. Amazon allows both “New” and “Used” listings to be sold under the same AISN. So if that’s truly the issue here, then that would be an issue between Amazon and Bosch.
However, I do believe the sole issue here is “Used” vs. “New”. One carries an expressed and implied warranty, the other does not. I don’t believe the number of listings a user has, or what brands they’re selling has any merit.
I think the major complication is the way Amazon lists used and marketplace items side by side. I see this mainly as an issue between Bosch and Amazon rather than with the reseller. There is certainly confusion between sold BY Amazon (an apparently authorized retailer) and sold ON Amazon (marketplace) and both might even be eligible for Prime shipping creating further confusion.
If in fact the seller listed them as “used” then I don’t see what the issue is with Bosch especially with e-bay selling hundreds with no issue. Sounds a bit aggressive and is a distasteful practice that makes me want to avoid Bosch which seems to be going through a bit of media crisis as of late. Their advertising group, for me, has been very poorly operated over a few years now.
Dave the tool
Hmmmm…perhaps Bosch has hired on a new team of attorneys from recent Ivy League graduates that applied for Facebook and Twitter legal censorship jobs but were told it would be a 5 year waiting period? 😉
I do know some of these law firms get paid for each letter they send and receive a successful result. Bosh probably has nothing to do with the individual instance. There is also a high probability that the law firm has no intention of filing suit. This is just a scare tactic.
Unless the OP of the reddit article is leaving something out that the lawyers already know.
Maybe it’s just me, but used sh*t is for eBay or Craigslist or nextdoor or letgo. Amazon should be new, they’re a retailer site
My understanding is that the seller listed the Bosch tools as “used: like-new” because they didn’t fit the requirements for listing it as new. There are similar listings like this for a lot of different tools.
Used books are one thing, but I would agree though that used tools seem more fitting for ebay or Craigslist.
I sort of come down on the side of Bosch on this which was just as much a shot over the bow for Amazon as it was for this individual seller. I know that the David vs Goliath stories elicit support for the traditional underdog – in this case a small seller versus the Giant multinational German corporation. But I think that there is more to it than that. Bosch has many smaller authorized dealers like Acme Tool and Coastal Tool that I have happily dealt with over the years. If Bosch allows unscrupulous sellers to use Amazon – allowing them and Amazon to profit from piecing out tools bought at promotional prices or as part of kits – then that undermines their authorized dealer network. I don’t read this as Bosch only protecting themselves – but as them supporting their legitimate sales channels. One guy selling a few “grey-market” tools on Amazon might not be a big deal – but the pattern is there for a deluge to follow. Amazon is not without fault in this.
The impact of allowing this sort of thing to continue can and does impact all of us small buyers. Think about past Toolguyd posts about great deals (eg. at Home Depot) that seemingly sell out nearly instantaneously. These deals – usually in part supported by the manufacturer – are likely meant to promote product and get them into the hands of many small buyers. Allowing “predators” to swoop in and buy up the stocks for resale on Amazon, eBay etc. defeats the purpose of the promotion and frustrates many small buyers who might have otherwise benefited. I understand all the adages – like: “the early bird catches the worm” – but sort of applaud Bosch for trying to stop this practice.
One can totally understand Bosch wanting to protect their brand, etc, but one question still looms large: What law did this guy break, exactly?
I ask because right now there’s really only one of two possibilities.
First is that there’s more going on here than we know.
Second is that Bosch is siccing their lawyers on someone who hasn’t broken any laws
I couldn’t care less about the “david versus goliath” aspect, I’m just struggling to see what law was broken.
I don’t think this was about any law being broken – but rather Amazon breaking its responsibilities as an authorized Bosch Dealer by allowing a third party to sell “grey market” Bosch tools on the Amazon platform. Maybe the letter should have gone to Amazon – but I suspect that they have more lawyers on payroll/retainer than does Bosch.
That’s a good point. Perhaps the optic would be different, and more correct, if Bosch sent that letter to Amazon.
Django Sunny Leveson-Jones
if bosch doesnt like amazons practices their they can either ask them to stop or drop amazon as an authorized dealer, that’s their only options this seller clearly played the rules
I understand where you’re coming from, but this is America and good, bad or indifferent, capitalism is still king. I could see Bosch stepping in if people were buying and reselling as “new” with a warranty attached, but this particular article is in reference to a “used” tool listing. Bosch has almost no say in what anybody selling their tools as “used.” If they want to stop this, they need to police it at the Authorized Distributor level by enforcing buying limits.
I’m with you, I don’t like aggressive resellers buying up a bunch of promo items and reselling them, but I also value the ability to be able to sell used items without harassment from the manufacturer. I agree this is an issue with Amazon and Bosch, but I’d imagine Bosch tried to get Amazon to forbid the selling of “used” tools and Amazon told them to pound sand. So now Bosch is stuck trying to police it themselves.
I read it. Won’t be buying Bosch. Couldn’t care less for their motivation. If I buy something it becomes my property and I have a right to sell it. If they want to start leasing tools to people instead of selling them, that’s their business but as soon as I take ownership of a purchase like this, it’s my right to sell it. Technology disrupts the market place. Adapt or fade away. It’s as simple as that…
Has any lawyer worth their salt ever written the phrase:
“Must we sue in relation to our previous correspondence to you?”
Does Amazon have a contract with Bosch, and does the 3rd party seller’s actions (which Amazon themselves happily accepted) actually cause Amazon to be in breach of the Bosch contract?
This smells fishy – I’m not involved, but I would sort of dare whoever is claiming to be Bosch to sue just to see where this goes. I presume that all of the correspondence has been proven to come from actual Bosch corporate reps?
The wording seems odd and unwieldy. I almost wonder if a competitor is posing as “Bosch Lawyer” and they are just plain trying to get rid of the competition through scare tactics.
Given the relative lack of context and solid information I do not have a solid option one way or the other.
From the perspective of a tool buying individual, I really don’t have much of an issue with individuals purchasing sets and splitting the individual tools up for resale. I can see the potential issues from the manufactures side with regard to warranty but honestly I think that is probably not as big of an issue as some make it out to be.
A good example of how to deal with this would be Milwaukee. They do not require registration of their tools in order to submit a warranty claim. They go by either proof of purchase (receipt, invoice, ect…) that you submit with the claim or lacking that tool serial number. Obviously if it was sitting on a authorized distributors shelf for a long time having proof of purchase is better. If going by the serial number what difference does it make if you were the original owner or not? They built the tool with a specific life span in mind and chose to warranty it if a period of time that they expect most to survive. I have sent in several tools over the years, some purchase through authorized dealers some from the secondary market. It would not have mattered where I purchased them from, the same model in the same service would have likely had the same failure rate. In all cases they repaired or replaced them and with out issue or question. In my opinion good customer service make a big difference in my loyalty to a brand.
Bosch on the other hand has a awful warranty registration site that has changed a few time in the last 10 years. They are generally more difficult to get serviced, and have longer turnaround times. I do like several of their 12 volt tools however that was not enough to keep me from jumping into Milwaukee’s M12 and M18 product lines.
I would think that unless there was substantial damage being done to a brands reputation due to fraud going after non authorized resellers does not seem like a productive use of resources. Market leader do not usually gain their positions by litigating. Innovation and being responsive to what a market needs and wants are what makes real market leaders. Bosch has lead in the past having been the first to market with a 10.8/12v lithium ion battery platform. Unfortunately they currently seems to be marching to their own tune rather than paying attention to much attention to the US market.
This speaks volumes about the quality of the lawyer(s) involved. (I am not a lawyer).
IMO a quality lawyer (or firm) would not have conducted itself in this manner. Contact the seller first, find out what is happening, have a discussion, a lawsuit is the very last step..
While the threat of a lawsuit might curtail a seller, starting with this threat is actually a low-budget approach for the lawyer.
Now if these lawyers are truly working for Bosch there are negatives associated with Bosch’s legal decision making. Who approved hiring this third-party lawyer/firm? Or, how are staff lawyers are allowed. to operate?
So while I started on the legal side I will hold Bosch responsible for not employing best practices in protecting their brand and distribution channels.
should this have been an official correspondence from bosch it certainly seems to have been handled poorly, an official statement going into detail on allowed practices for resellers could prove beneficial – moreso than a threatening letter to an individual.
Amazon has a mechanism to restrict product sales by only authorized sellers. Try listing an Apple product for sale on Amazon, you can’t because they put restrictions in place. Bosch should use the tools available to them rather than having marketing reps send threatening form letters. I’ve received letters like this from other manufacturers and I usually ignore them since I’m only selling one or two of an item and actual legal action is sent via certified mail or subpoena.
I wouldn’t believe everything on Reddit. If Bosch had real legal standing to go after anyone that sold a used Bosch tool on Amazon then I figure Amazon would have a way to prevent listing used Bosch tools. I just went to Amazon and searched for Bosch tools- Condition Used and there are plenty of tools that show more buying choices (used). I doubt that Bosch’s lawyers are sending letters to each of those sellers. I suspect the redditor is not telling the whole story. Maybe he has a high volume of sales and/or misleading descriptions of the tool condition (ex. “like new” is not the same as new) that caused customer complaints and now Bosch’s lawyers are trying to remedy that. There isn’t enough info in that reddit post to tell. I hope the redditor isn’t trying to rally support by doing a little guy vs big evil corp story.
@MikeIt I found the Reddit thread in question, read the whole thing, and was shocked to find out that this is in fact how Bosch handles trying to shut down unauthorized resellers on Amazon. As Stuart mentioned, I’m actually thinking the Redditor received his letter in error, since he’s selling a “Used” item, but found numerous other people posting about receiving identical letters from the exact same lawyer/firm in regards to selling Bosch tools on Amazon.
This is a long post. For those that like to complain about this stuff…skip to the next one.
You did not cover one avenue of acquisition in your post.
I walk into a store (home depot and Lowes mostly) and buy the tool brand new, in a box, and still sealed…but it’s on clearance (I only buy Bosch if it’s at least 60% off or more because it’s not a popular brand and that crap will sit for months before someone buys it).
I’ve sold a handful of Bosch dust collection stuff and a drill/impact kit on amazon that were listed as “used-like new”. I did get one email from an authorized seller accusing me of selling stolen goods because my way lower price, but I have receipts for all my purchases.
I can offer stuff way lower because I’m not greedy about it.
A typical retailer will sell something for 10% off and act like you owe them for treating you so well.
I’ll buy a $300 drill/impact kit for $75, list it on amazon for $150, pay $20 to ship it to amazon and another $10-20 in sellers fees, have someone match and beat my price by a cent, drop my price $5 more to p!$$ them off and sell it to recoup my initial $75 and maybe make a profit of $25 if I’m lucky (this doesn’t include the taxes I paid to buy from the initial retailer or the taxes I will have to pay at the end of the year because I sold it on amazon).
You say…”Looking at Bosch’s side of things, I can understand why they’re trying to control who sells Bosch tools as new. Many resellers will buy promo-priced tools from authorized dealers and then flood them back into online marketplaces at inflated pricing. This typically hurts authorized dealers and users alike, and only really benefits those looking to turn a quick profit.”
I think this statement is inherently untrue and speaks to these brands ability to persuade the media and the public to treat all 3rd party sellers as double crossing scum.
I got a great deal and someone gets a good deal from me (literally better than anywhere else). Amazon makes off like a bandit and looking great because they got a piece of the pie, while Bosch already got paid by Lowes in the first place through a contract set price that isn’t even affected by Lowes selling this slow moving crap inventory to begin with.
Bosch is like any other distributor…Greedy.
The movie industry has this problem with the used market (why do you think they encourage renting a digital product, or better yet, “buying” a digital movie that you “own” even though the terms dictate otherwise).
The gaming industry has the same problem with the used market and is ever shifting to all digital.
Tesla, BMW, etc. doing subscriptions or having to pay a fee to unlock features like heated seats in your car (something that is already installed and ready to go…).
This is all a battle for these companies to get rid of the used market.
The used market is a counterbalance to these companies that would raise prices indefinitely if only they could sell and resell a product.
There are so many companies and industries that do this, I could make this list 10X longer than the rest of my post.
To your point above, the inflation is already set by the manufacturers (“get this $1,000 tool for $250…THAT’S A WHOLE 75% OFF” even though the tool was never listed or sold for more than $300).
Reselling may hurt authorized dealers in the very very short term if we looked at a graph of their sales for a day it would be a tiny blip (it’s also just called competition)…but users?!? How do you even come to that conclusion?
I can’t speak for Bosch, but Milwaukee (and others) will honor a warranty based solely on the serial number and date code on their products and they were already paid for the tool when it left them and went to distributors. They may make a big deal about puffing their chest and telling consumers that they won’t honor a purchase from amazon, but they would never know if you don’t tell them anyways.
My local Milwaukee repair center doesn’t even use a receipt from retailers anyways, they use the numbers on the side of the tool. A receipt only benefits me if I buy an older tool that sat on a shelf for three or four years and I want the full 5 years and want to dispute it with Milwaukee direct.
Selling on Amazon also doesn’t hurt the “user” because I (the seller) WILL end up footing the bill for any returns, counterfeits, damaged goods, lies, or literally anything else. Amazon will back the buyer 100% unless I could prove otherwise (unlikely).
@Chris if posts could be pinned, this would be the one! Extremely well written, and 100% agree.
I don’t get it. The product was genuine and was lawfully purchased. It was being resold without warranty. The seller made no representation that he was an authorized dealer. He didn’t even represent that it was new. Even if he was selling them as new, I don’t know what law is being broken. This is not tortious interference. which requires the seller’s intentional and unjustified inducement of a breach of contract. There’s none of that. This is not the situation intended to be protected by tortious interference law. It may violate Amazon’s rules, but it’s not unlawful. Also, consider that Amazon Warehouse is not an authorized dealer, but they sell used Bosch tools every day – I bet they’re not getting cease and desist letters.
Without seeing the original post, it’s hard to tell. The thread that it was in would also give me cause to wander. Too many unknowns.
I received a similar letter from a sneaker brand over a pair of shoes I was selling on eBay as new. Same threats regarding breaking distributors agreement, same arguments quoted above. It was so similar that my initial reaction upon reading this here was wondering if this was some sort of scam, although I can’t see the end game. They were asking me to take the item down.
Ben in Va
How could a retail transaction, where the authorized dealer sets the sale price, and the purchaser pays the sale price, constitute tortious interference? Wouldn’t Bosch have included some details of the actual interference in their wordy letter, if it had occurred. Even if there was interference, what are Bosch’s damages if the authorized dealer paid Bosch for the product?
The letter by Bosch seems like an attempt to bully someone using legal language. I find this intimidation distasteful. Had I not lost interest in continuing to purchase Bosch 12v tools from their neglect of the platform, I certainly would be turned off by this behavior.
I had the same thing happen when I sold a Denon product on Ebay. A lawyer for Denon contacted me telling me they would sue me if I didn’t take it down. I explained that I was the original owner and I purchased it from an authorized dealer. I’m not in the business of selling Denon anything other than an item I had originally purchased for personal use.
Out of an abundance of goodwill, I did offer that Denon was free to buy my item back if they were that concerned about controlling their products distribution.
The item sold (to someone other than Denon), I have never heard from them again, and I will never buy another Denon product again.
I’ve sold Bosch stuff as new on ebay, never had an issue except once they asked eBay to remove it from sale on their UK site, (I ship globally) and they did.
I suspect they’re going after Amazon listing as used while using one of their photos.
Leatherman is also protective of their photos but don’t care if you use your own.
This article (thanks Stuart!) brought back bad memories of Adobe Resellers legal team after me. I was selling two, unopened, Adobe Acrobat Pro packages (Win/Mac) that were extra purchases made by accident and when inventoried, it was more than a year past returning to the vendor. So, with owners permission, I put them on eBay, with photos, and showed new, still sealed. I was threatened by BSA for Adobe, and eBay deleted the listing with a nasty email as well.
I actually called the BSA (Business Software Association) that made the claim, spoke to their counsel, and it was understood I was NOT a Reseller but a Customer that couldn’t return the unopened software for refund from our vendor. But due to numerous reseller agreements, etc, I was not permitted to “resell” new software. Really. They did say I could apply as a Reseller of Adobe software, blah blah. But in the end, I realized that someone that was authorized on ebay, was monitoring listings and reporting them. “Unfair competition”.
Apparently BSA represents not just Adobe and their job is to pursue fraud and reseller violations. In the end, my boss was like, we lost $400..fuck it, you should post the serial numbers on some forum or give it away, (I did the later). Just crazy stupid, but I understand protecting their IP. (I was reselling unopened Adobe software without Reseller credentials on eBay. This was before Craigslist and such so I would have sold it there. No way to recoup company loss than write off the software). BTW- Adobe would not credit nor buy it back. Vendor apologized but wouldn’t take it back either. Rock, meet hard place. I can see why folks are mad at Bosch.
Bosch sounds like intimidation first, but then this Redditor is getting new/seconds from authorized Bosch retailer and reselling Use-like new…on Amazon, sounds like an opportunist that the Authorized Bosch retailer is in violation, ??? If you search Amazon for Bosch tools, there is an Official Bosch Store, so in theory, they don’t want anyone reselling their product, new or otherwise, without permission.
I’m no lawyer, but I thing there is a fair use/first use for a consumer that gets a tool new (contest, part of 2 for one sale, …) and can sell it so. Just there aren’t many venues that will permit it unless stated as used. God, my head is spinning in that if Amazon allows resellers Used, like New, etc, then allows manufacturers to pursue (incase of fraud, cheap Chinese IP ripoffs, knockoffs…) because they are protecting their IP…might not be best interest to use Amazon as a platform, right consumers?
Also, companies have contractual reselling agreements (Walmart, HomeDepot, Lowes, Etc…) for pricing and retail markets. Putting stuff up on Amazon, competing against Amazon Bosch Store, makes sense for Bosch to intervene. But it does show how legal intimidation can dampen niches.
Irony is that looking for a new, PS5, Walmart willingly sells them, by scalpers, at DOUBLE the MSRP ($1099 at one time). Does Sony send letters to Walmart? No, because Walmart is a reseller, and whatever price is listed ABOVE MSRP isn’t a problem to Sony. But it is to potential customers unwilling to pay that!
So, not sure if the Redditor is really being upfront about “making some money reselling as consumer”, that he/she got the Bosch tools legally (Authorized Bosch sellers cannot be distributors), and that Amazon will ban first and drag it out till either you prove (and loose sales) them wrong or bail on it. Oh such a rabbithole…