I am looking to get a cabinet-style table saw this year. Or next year. Maybe.
SawStop = Safety
When you think SawStop, you think “safety.” Their patented injury mitigation technology has saved many users’ fingers and hands. SawStop safety tech works by activating a blade brake and retraction mechanism when it detects human skin contact.
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SawStop marketing photos show that accidental blade contact causes a scratch at most, rather than horrific digit amputation.
No woodworker, DIYer, or contractor plans on having their fingers touch a spinning blade, but it does happen.
Here’s the thing – with insurance, you protect your financial wellbeing for when something accidental or outside your control happens.
With a table saw, you are in full control of your actions, or at least you should be. Accidents tend to happen when safety measures are defeated or users grow too comfortable with tools and let down their guard.
I don’t use power tools when I’m tired or impaired, and having read about all kinds of user accidents, I am almost obsessively cautions – most of the time.
Do I need a SawStop? Is it necessary if modern table saw safety guards and implementations are used and safety practices firmly adhered to?
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Could I just continue using portable table saws, one of them being the previous SawStop jobsite model test sample that I have not yet donated?
Different Questions to Ask
I spoke with a SawStop VP a few years ago, and the phone call started changing how I view the brand.
Then, when I started testing the SawStop jobsite saw, I was deeply impressed by the experience, none of which was directly tied to the safety features.
Remove the active injury mitigation technology – the main safety feature – and a new question arises.
One can hope to never need to experience SawStop’s safety tech in person, but for now let’s ignore it and take it out of the equation. If you want active injury mitigation and flesh-sending tech, SawStop’s the only option right now.
For the user that doesn’t want or need the safety tech, is SawStop still an incredible table saw? Is it still the best choice for users?
Is a SawStop Table Saw Right for Me?
Did you see that latest video by [popular YouTube DIYer]? Or that project by [popular woodworking influencer]? They love their SawStop table saw.
“Well, of course they do, they got it for free.”
Some of the sponsored/review coverage I’ve seen seems absolutely genuine, and some I tend to have doubts about.
From my experiences with the jobsite saw, I think SawStop hype is justified.
Six months ago, I knew I would likely buy a SawStop. Now, I’m still maybe 80% certain of this, but I’m less sure than previously.
I’ve been using portable-style jobsite table saws without issue. Pawls help to prevent kickback, riving knives help to prevent binding, guards help to keep the blade covered, and following proper safety practices helps to prevent any surprise incidents. Reading each tool’s user manual should of course always be the first step.
Should I just build a larger base for a portable jobsite or contractor-style table saw?
What about other brands’ of cabinet table saws? They offer most of the same features aside from the SawStop safety tech.
Maybe I could or should invest in a European-style cabinet saw with a sliding fence? Maybe used?
While I have a track saw, a table saw is still indispensable for many types of wood and plywood cutting tasks. It’s still, as woodworking and workshop authorities would describe, the cornerstone of most workshops.
Which SawStop Table Saw?
110V and 1.75HP, or 220V and 3HP?
Personally I’d lean towards the Personal Cabinet Saw (PCS), although I still don’t quite understand the difference their Industrial model offers. I remember once being told that, among the Industrial Cabinet Saw users, there are more DIYer woodworkers use that model than actual commercial users, although I don’t know if this is still true or if I am possibly remembering it wrong. The PCS seems to be the most popular model for individuals.
My research over the years shows that the industrial cabinet saw mobile base on the PCS is the way to go, as is the upgraded T-Glide fence option.
I probably don’t need a 36″ rip capacity, but that seems to be the way to get the upgraded T-Glide fence, compared to the 30″ design. But, you also get greater support via legs under the overhang. The 36″ saw doesn’t look to be too much wider than the 30″, and so perhaps the footprint difference is minimal.
Which dust collection methodology is best for me?
Decisions, Decisions
One thing that is clear to me is that I need a better setup than I have now. Portable table saws can be cumbersome when you’re working with bigger workpieces. They’re designed for portability and jobsite efficiency, and are less ideal for workshop tasks.
One popular DIYer approach is to build a work table that supports a portable table saw, placing the top inline with the table saw’s table to expand its working surface.
A custom mobile workbench that can be paired with a portable table saw is going to have just as large of a footprint, and it’ll still cost a good chunk of money to build. Maybe it won’t cost as much money, but a lot of time also has to be factored in, too.
While that might ease some frustrations, it still wouldn’t be ideal given some of the portable table saw frustrations and limitations I’ve experienced over the past few years.
ToolGuyd has a budget for tools and equipment tied to content-related needs. I’ve been saving up, and although there are a couple of things the budget could go towards, I think that a cabinet-style table saw is winning.
There are things I want to make as part of project-related coverage, projects I need to make in support of regular content creation (such as a space-saving safety gear cabinet and parts cabinets), and parts I need to make for functional use (such as for product testing support or jigs).
I’ve been using forward and rear supports with portable table saws. A DIY cabinet base will help with this, but it won’t do anything about the fence. Okay, maybe I can design my own fence. The added time, cost, and complexity adds up, and at the end, the solution is still a compromise.
A cabinet-style table saw is my next upgrade.
Maybe at that point I might take the time to design and build a mobile DIY portable table saw worktable, for comparison purposes.
Here’s what’s important to me: Less noise. Better dust collection. Accuracy and easy calibrations. Mobility – I want to be able to push the saw aside or pull it out for use with ease. Quality. Fast and effective customer service. Easy controls. Less hassle.
I built myself a workbench, but when it came time to outfitting it with drawers, I waited, and waited, and waited until I had the time to do them properly. I eventually ordered some kitchen cabinet drawers. I’ll just made the drawer fronts – eventually. I have two more workshop cabinets to build now, and having a better table saw will make the tasks go quicker and easier, and maybe even with better results.
There are times when the DIY route is perfect, and other times it’s a customize. Here, the decision about whether to work on a table saw vs. with a table saw is the easy one for me. For you, it might be better to save the difference in cost and put that towards something else.
SawStop’s jobsite saw proved to be a VERY GOOD tool, and it surprised me as to how user-friendly it was. Does SawStop’s cabinet saws deliver a comparably exceptional user experience?
I just received my purchased Powermatic jointer today. Will my upcoming experiences push me to the “Gold Standard” brand? They also have new 100th anniversary tools coming out, with the PM1000 table saw included in the specially decorated anniversary edition tools. That throws a wrench into things.
This all brings me back to the title question.
Is SawStop the best workshop table saw brand this year? Should I look at other brands or styles of saws (e.g. Euro-style)?
I have been mulling over another question: if SawStop was willing to provide a test sample for review, or a “use it now or lose it” editorial or influencer discount, would I take advantage of it? Absolutely. I prefer to purchase tools for use, but an editorial sample or discount would allow for content exploration commitments and also squash my indecisiveness.
This post is intended to answer two questions for me. Is there a better choice when it comes to cabinet saws? And, is there interest in detailed explorations regardless as to which table saw path I go down? Going down the DIY table saw platform vs. cabinet saw debate, for instance, really depends on having both options side by side.
For instance, I purchased an 8″ jointer and a brand supplied me with a 6″ jointer, and only with the two can I explore the pros and cons of both.
I can make do without a full-size table saw and wait further. If I’m going to give up floor space to accommodate one, I need to be sure I’m making the best choice and that I can squeeze every bit of use and editorial potential out of it.
Thoughts?
Tom
If I were to buy a table saw, it would be a SawStop. I am terribly afraid of table saws. My real hesitation though is that I am afraid that I will lose that fear and become complacent after getting used to a table saw–and that is when mistakes happen.
To me, I would rather spend more money fitting out my shop with track saw accessories. Track saws seem to have gotten to the point where you don’t really need a table saw. Yes, it is more expensive to go this route. But I will much less likely to lose a finger when doing work that will never be more than a hobby.
Stuart
The compromise with track saws is in ease and speed of repeatability.
You have an 8.5-inch board that’s 1.5″ thick, and you want to rip it into 1-inch strips. A table saw will do this faster and easier. If that board is 2-feet long, I can do it on my MFT table with a track saw, but it’ll take longer.
Let’s say that 8.5″ board is now 1.5″ thick and 6-feet long. What can you use if not a table saw? Maybe a band saw? If a track saw, you’ll need more accessories, more support, and more setup time. If you’re working with hardwood, you’re limited on power.
My time these days is often in small chunks. Can I set the tool up quickly, or do I need to fiddle a lot?
This is one of those things where I don’t *need* something bigger. I can do dados and grooves with a router. I can use my track saw. I can use a portable saw. But there are different walls I run into depending on the task.
Consider computer keyboards. I can type on a tiny little compact keyboard, but I prefer my full-size keyboard with its separate numerical keypad on the right side. If you work with a lot of numbers, the upper row of a compact keyboard will bog you down. But, there are also operations where you cannot use the top-row numbers for, such as special characters: µ ± ° Þ. There are other ways to get these characters, but alt-codes are the fastest and easiest for me.
Track saws also have size limitations. If you want to rip-cut say a 3″ board, you’re going to need to provide auxiliary support in order to do so stably.
I am very much a proponent for track saws, but they will never replace table saws for a lot of things.
For sheet goods, you can go either way for a lot of different cutting operations.
TK
What about a Mafell Erika? Always been curious about those.
Stuart
It looks interesting, but it’s designed to be portable. I’m more looking for something heavier and more rigid.
I also like the idea of large metal wheels for dialing in settings vs. plastic levers and knobs.
Mopar4wd
That seems really cool, but wow that’s expensive even for a high end tool.
fred
When I bought my home-shop Unisaw in the early 1970’s there were fewer choices (for me anyway). I looked at Powermatic but was used to the Unisaw’s blade tilt – so that made up my mind. I added their sliding table (a bit clunky) and later upgrade the fence to a Biesemeyer – but generally don’t regret the choice. Today – I might put the Sawstop and the Hammer K3 Winner (31 x 31) if I could stand the price into the hunt.
William
As a professional, as of present I would never buy a SawStop. 1) I’ve heard of more people having a false trigger from a screw or wet wood or whatever else than I’ve heard from testimonials of the saw saving fingers. 1.5) A brake trip is expensive, close to $200, even more if using a dado stack. 2) The leading cause of injury on a TS is kickback, not blade cuts. 3) I strongly and passionately disagree with SawStop’s business ethics. If your mission is to keep people safe, license your tech.
Let Bosch make the Reaxx. Or do like Volkswagen and make the patent for the seatbelt free to use. And if you don’t do any of that, you can’t lobby for legislation to make the technology only you have be required in all new table saws (which they have tried to do). 4) I’d rather have a 5HP motor or larger. 5) A table saw for me is a lifetime tool. How many unisaws or PM66’s are still floating in the secondhand market. I want a tool I can work on. The circuitry and electronic elements make me a bit nervous. 6) I’ve heard numerous people comment on how the assurance of a safety net makes them complacent using a SawStop. See point 2 as to why this is bad. It also makes you more unsafe on traditional saws.
But for a homeowner, using it occasionally in an unprofessional environment, it is a a worthy contender.
fred
Kickback does seem to be a big contender in TS safety concerns. In over 50 years of using a table saw – my only near miss was a kickback that left me with a bruised shoulder – but could have been much worse.
In our cabinet shop – we had a dedicated Oliver rip saw with a motorized feeder that helped reduce the danger.
I’m also a believer that safe table saw use requires training and constant vigilance – and that circadian rhythms play a role in accident occurrence.
BTW – many Europeans believe that dado sets are anathema as they deem them unsafe. European table saws often have more room in front of the blade – which also tends to help with line-up and positioning yourself to avoid kickback injuries in ripping.
Stuart
European-style table saws also have sled-style mechanisms where the support brings larger boards to the wood, rather than miter gauges.
There are a lot of differences in safety. I toyed with the idea of a European-style jointer, with completely different guard style that rides over the work rather than moving out of the way. But those machines are also pricier and more complicated to buy, install, and service.
Track saws are also much more popular in Europe, but they’ve gained in popularity here. It’s curious how there are such different styles of tools.
European combination miter saw and table saw tools, for example, don’t pass USA safety requirements.
fred
I had heard good things about Felder’s service – but to be truthful we had a big mix and match of tools in our cabinet shop (Delta, General. Laguna, Oliver, Powermatic, Safety Speed Cut, SCM and Shop Fox. Our sliding table saw was an Asian knockoff (big Shop Fox) – rather than a Hammer or Felder – but it the guys liked it. When you move up to a production slider – you generally add features like a dedicated scoring blade with separate motor and much bigger table.
In our GC/Remodeling business we had 2 Unisaws that we’d sometimes truck around to larger jobsites. But for the most part we got by using smaller jobsite saws. IMO – jobsite saws probably account for many more accidents than do cabinet saws. This may be do to many factors – possibly the most significant being ease of purchase that lures some novices or less-than-professional “contractors” into joining “the table saw club” without due respect to training. It is also a bit sad that the introductory training that I got in HS woodshop is now nearly non-existent.
Jim Felt
fred
“It is also a bit sad that the introductory training that I got in HS woodshop is now nearly non-existent.”
I actually attended a (once) all boy public technical HS and truly rue the day they barely exist in this kinda benighted century.
AKA who’s going to actually build and even service the infrastructure of our future? No. Really.
A surprising number of my “professional” friends, vendors and even colleagues are unable to change a line voltage SPST wall switch or tell PVC from a galvanized pipe.
End of rant.
Art
I know it’s been said a million times and counter argued, but as a company, I can’t stand behind their product. I’ll just wait for Reaxx / patent expiration that was cited in litigation. Kickback is more of an issue anyhow.
Stuart
SawStop saws have a bypass mode and it’ll tell you if the wood is wet enough to active the brake with a false-positive.
I don’t work with reclaimed wood, so nails are not a concern for me specifically. I also don’t work with wet wood. But if I need to, there’s that bypass mode.
The politics are tricky.
SawStop’s founder didn’t want to make saws, they wanted other brands to license the tech. Brands didn’t want to license the tech so they went into the saw-making business.
With patents, you protect your IP or you risk losing it. (Potential correction: or you risk losing the protections and benefits it provides). Courts ruled that Bosch infringed upon the SawStop IP with the Reaxx. The Reaxx was a nice concept, but it also wasn’t very polished yet.
Years ago the popular notion was that SawStop was trying to force adoption of their tech via government regulation, but after I spoke with them, this didn’t seem accurate. I’ve largely ignored the politics about all this because it simply doesn’t play into my purchasing decisions.
Table saw safety standards are still evolving. For example, you can’t buy compact portable table saws with 10″ blades anymore.
From the lawsuit, SawStop said:
(https://toolguyd.com/bosch-reaxx-table-saw-delayed-interesting-lawsuit-reading/)
Competition is good. Once the patents start to expire, hopefully we’ll see some more advancements.
Once the patents expire, we’re guaranteed to see competing offerings on the market.
But right now, if you want safety tech, you have one choice.
If you want a high quality cabinet saw, there are options, but not many options, and that’s what I’m trying to explore once again.
For me, a 3HP saw would be the focus, and even that probably delivers greater power overhead than I really need.
As a professional, would you see any insurance benefits from having safety tech on your saw(s)? In a commercial environment, I would absolutely agree with many of your points regarding 5HP, training, safety practices, and the potential for over-confidence that can lead to other injuries. Still, seasoned pros aren’t invincible and there are occasionally accidents. With portable table saws, a lot of injuries occur when safety guards are defeated and recommended safety practices ignored. But there are still avoidable blade-contact injuries.
This is exactly why I was interested in bringing up the topic. Most online discussions, conversations, and reviews end up wholly focused on the safety tech aspect. While important, it’s difficult to find much information about all the other factors that affect the everyday user experience.
William
You don’t think you work with wet wood or staples until you accidently do. I’ve heard of pressure treated wood setting of the brake. Lumber places are notorious for having staples in the sides or ends of boards (I’m looking at you Lowes). Perhaps if you knew you risked $200 you might be more aware of checking the wood. But heck, I’ve had instance where I’ve accidentally hit screws.
I have three table saws, an 8′ sliding table saw with 12″ blade (maybe what you’re calling european?), a 10″ unisaw, and the premium 10″ dewalt jobsite saw with folding rolling stand. Having used all three for years I would rather have a table saw with a larger than necessary motor and solid base than one with flesh detection. I don’t use blade guards since they get in the way and actually make me unsafe but a riving knife is important. Good outfeed support is also more important than flesh detection.
You mentioned looking at european sliders. They are good if you do a lot of sheet goods. I couldn’t live without my slider but it definetly has its limitations. You’re very limited on jigs and accessories and you cant use a crosscut sled for small parts or special jigs.
You also can’t use dado blades, at least on mine. Unbeatable for cutting plywood all day though.
Stuart
I’ve heard of pressure-treated lumber setting things off.
I tend to remove staples and have cut through them before. But for screws and nails, I tend to be very diligent where possible.
I’ve used the jobsite saw without issue.
The question is – if not a SawStop PCS, then which saw provides a superior experience with a similar footprint and comparable electric needs?
Powermatic PM2000B 3HP?
With the 5 HP, would wiring new outlets for it require 10 AWG? I plan on making an extension cord for my jointer and then installing a 220V circuit where I need it. The 5 HP requires a 30A circuit which would mean dedicated wiring, which would likely lead me to postpone for a long time.
ross
I’ve cut through screws without tripping anything. It was explained to me a screw or nail typically isn’t a big enough ground to trip the safety. If your finger was touching part of the screw it would be a different story. Same story with staples.
ross
Nails and screws aside if I were buying again I would get a slider. I think it’s a better design if you have the space and if safety is your concern, you’re just not around the blade.
Adabhael
I am not a lawyer, and certainly not looking to pick a fight, but I think you might be conflating two different forms of IP: patents and trademarks. You must protect a trademark or it might no longer distinguish you in the market, and then loses legal protection. The patent is a time-limited government-authorized monopoly: so people defend them so as not to lose money during that limited window, not because the protection goes away.
Stuart
That’s what I’ve heard numerous times, and I’ve also seen arguments for and against it.
I think with trademarks, it’s “use it or lose it”?
With patents, I’ve been conditioned to believe that if you aren’t prepared to defend it, you can lose the protections it entails. Sorry, I didn’t think the “protect it or risk losing it” part fully through.
Tom D
Patents are famous for being “submarine patents” where you intentionally do NOT enforce it for a number of years and then bring a much larger patent suit.
Jim Felt
Tom D. As you likely know there are a number of wildly successful (only in the financial sense) patent trolls that only surface to grab a pound or rather a ton of flesh for literally inventing nothing.
AKA “the American Way”. (I wonder what Superman would think of that)?
Koko The Talking Ape
I’m technically a lawyer, but I took my one intellectual property class lo about 30 years ago. So take this with a dash of salt.
But we discussed this in class. Failing to protect your patent is not grounds for losing patent protection. And that’s a general principle in law. If something is your “property,” then you don’t lose your rights to your property by simply failing to exercise those rights. Neglecting to run off some trespassers off your yard doesn’t mean you lose rights to your yard.
Cheers!
OldDominionDIYer
I agree on the licensing part, let others use the tech, pay royalties etc and allow everyone to benefit (and improve on it). Mass use would likely drop the cost for the brake trip too. Having a healthy concern for retaining all of my fingers is great incentive to be extra cautious for me. knowing that I would not cut my finger off with one of these is nice but would likely cause me to get complacent possibly.
A W
I totally understand this argument. But it was Volvo that invented and distributed the 3 point seat belt.
Adabhael
I actually came here to say this also. Credit where credit is due!
King duck
You hit every point I don’t like about them and some I hadn’t thought about. I really hate their business practices especially the lobbying when they have a monopoly on the technology.
Mike
Just a few things:
The safety tech is based on your body’s electrical current. When your skin comes in contact with the blade, the circuitry reads the change and reacts.
1)The wet wood and embedded metal argument is valid. However, if we are talking about a Cabinet saw, why would your wood be wet or have any metal in it?
1.5)The brakes are expensive. But much less costly than having your insurance premiums go up, losing personnel, having increased down time or even losing jobs.
2)Kickback is a problem for any table saw. No argument there.
3)Having heard the full story of SawStop, they tried to sell the technology away to every tool company before there was a initial model. Bosch, for one, laughed in their face. Their reasoning was, at the time, nobody will pay for this tech. So, Dr. Gass and his friend decided to make it themselves. Fast forward a decade plus later, and here comes Bosch, thinking they were big enough to overpower an upstart little company from Tualatin, OR. As for the legislation they were trying to have passed, there are two sides to it. First, they were already aware that Bosch saw the value in what they had passed on and if SawStop’s tech was a requirement, Bosch couldn’t sell the Reaxx. Second, they were founded by someone who grew tired of sewing fingers back on hands. So, he developed something that basically would put him out of a job.
4)Wanting a 5HP motor is completely understandable.
5)Anyone who buys a table saw should be buying something they intend to use for as long as they can. The same can be said about many other purchases.
6)Complacency is a problem that we as a species struggle with. I have seen people crossing the street, looking at the phone, walking into traffic. This is the VERY reasoning behind the safety features.
I know I sound like I drank the Kool-Aid but I really looked into these saws. For me, the hidden features are the tipping point. On the jobsite saw, the brake system can be bypassed but you need a removable key (which has a hole for a key ring) to disable the tech. So, if you run a larger crew, the foreman can make it work or not work. That fixes any wet or metal-embedded wood issues. Also, raising the blade in one turn is pretty awesome, as is the bevel adjuster.
Nate B
So, we just had a trip on MDF. No nails, no staples, no shiny edgebanding, no laser-cuter carbon char (all things that’ve set it off in the past). The only thing even remotely possible is that the wood could’ve been damp, but it’s super dry here right now.
They said: > We received the brake cartridge you sent in for evaluation. After analyzing the data from the brake cartridge, we determined that the cartridge most likely activated when the saw blade contacted ungrounded metal. The most common metal object involved in this type of contact is a tape measure or ruler, or a fixture containing metal.
Well that’s a heap of bull. Nothing of the sort happened; a tape measure would’ve been clearly visible on the shop video.
So, the other obvious solution is to run the saw in bypass mode to check whether the material is gonna set off the system in normal mode. But you only do that if you have reason to suspect the material in the first place, and it means you’re running without protection for the duration of several test cuts, which requires sacrificing an indeterminate quantity of material to those test cuts. Not a solution.
So, just accept that nuisance trips are gonna happen, way more often than you’d like. I think we’re at 8 nuisance trips and 1 or 2 finger saves, which is still cheaper than 1 or 2 lost fingers.
Steve
You must have the best health insurance plan in the country. Eight nuisance trips costs eight brakes plus eight blades; no where near the cost of surgery/rehab/workers comp/lost productivity. Let’s run a worst case scenario: all eight nuisance trips were while running an 8″ dado stack. $100 brake + $200 for a top of the line stack (eg Freud SD508). That’s $2400. The low end of an estimate for finger reattachment surgery is $3500, ranging up to $9000. And this is not to mention a very small price to pay for giving a $&×! about your employees’ well-being.
Dave
Steve, I totally agree with everything you said except for 1 thing.
I re-read Nate B’s last paragraph over and over and I can’t help thinking that he was trying to say that ‘despite all the money and inconvenience that those nuisance trips have cost him, it’s well worth the cost as compared to the cost (and that’s not just $$) of a lost finger.
WastedP
MDF can have a higher internal moisture content than kiln dried solid wood or other sheet goods. This characteristic is what makes it powder coat-able.
I asked the Saw Stop rep if wet cedar, over 12% would trip the brake. He said maybe, and it would be best to test it on bypass mode. Most of my material is 5-6%, but occasionally i have to work with customer provided material that is sopping wet. My guess is that I would be bypassing the safety features more often than not. So I am sticking with the 5 HP Powermatic for now.
Woodworker
Sawstop tried to license its tech, it only became a power tool manufacturer because the primary table saw manufacturers refused to license the technology. They did this because of fear of law suits on past products and because they did not want to add it to all their table saws.
Marvin L McConoughey
Sawstop did try to license its tech. It was it’s first choice to make money. The amount of money it wanted was unacceptable to other saw makers. Monopoly producers often tend to want considerable money.
Patrick
The your points are terribly misinformed. I’ve been using them for years, commercially and in my own cabinet shop. They do not trigger at random on screws and wet wood. SAWSTOP also has a policy of if it’s a malfunctioning trigger, they will replace for free, which after 1000s of hours on a saw, I can attest, does not happen. Replacement parts for electronics are no more costly than other table saw parts. More often than not, kickbacks do not end woodworking careers like a major hand injury can. 200$ for a new blade and brake is nothing compared to the medical bills for blade related injuries. You are entitled to your opinion, but until you actually use one extensively, I’d suggest withholding your opinions.
Jim
The cartridge is 80 bucks. What blade are you using that’s over 100?
Chris
I purchased a porter cable table saw (pcb270ts) years ago from Lowe’s. While it’s no powermatic or sawstop, it certainly gets the job done for a small shop. Easy to move, has a fence, track for jigs, wide workspace, accommodates dados, and more. For extra support, I purchased feed rollers. While I’d love to upgrade to better equipment, I’d end up without the flexibility of mobility and would likely upgrade to 220v. I also feel safer on a table saw vs a compact job site saw or even a circular saw. You just need to respect the equipment and stay alert. IMO, Sawstop seems like overkill if you follow the above rules.
Stuart
I considered getting a contractor-style saw, but it would only be a small step up from what I’m using now.
There aren’t many good options these days. There’s the Ridgid model, and its footprint isn’t that much different than a cabinet saw. I made the choice a few years ago to skip it and potentially save the money for the bigger leap between jobsite saw and cabinet saw.
If I were shopping as a hobbyist, that’s probably the path I would have went.
Aaron
The stability on a cabinet saw is a big deal. Knowing that it won’t move while you’re pushing your board and hands near the blade. I don’t use a portable table saw unless I feel very controlled on other factors and have no other option.
Sliding table makes a huge difference for cabinet carcasses but it’s not great for ripping stock down. I recommend a good solid cabinet saw.
Stuart
Thanks! Makes sense. Sliding tables take up a lot of space and wouldn’t earn their footprint or expense to me. I figure I’d use a miter gauge for small cross-cuts, track saw for larger ones. I have a lot of cabinets I want to make in future projects, but that’s more of a supporting type of project that I have in mind.
Andy
I originally purchased the Sawstop Jobsite pro saw but after using it I realized I needed a bigger saw. Like you mentioned, the Jobsite is a great saw but I started to want the full capabilities and precision a full sized cabinet saw offered.
Luckily for me I had a good relationship with my local Rockler and they were willing to let me exchange my Jobsite for a PCS. I ended up getting the 3HP PCS with a 56″ fence because that was the only one they actually had in stock. I was waiting for a 1.75hp PCS with a 36″ fence but that model was backordered without even an estimated arrival date. I also bought the industrial mobile base to go with it. The mobile base is great and allows me to maneuver the saw inside my 2 car garage easily and I like not having to fold the saw up when I am done like I had to with my Jobsite.
Setup of the PCS was pretty straight forward until I had to level out the cast iron extension wings and the extension table. It took me quite a few tries and hours to get everything leveled and flat to my liking but I have a tendency to try to get everything 100% perfect. In the end I still wasn’t able to get it lined up perfectly but it was within Sawstop’s tolerances.
After using it, I am 100% glad that I upgraded. It cuts very smoothly and without any additional effort on my part. With my Jobsite there were times it felt like the saw was bogging down slightly even when cutting 3/4 baltic birch but the PCS powers through it without even trying. Also the cuts are much cleaner vs my jobsite using the same blade. The fence is the T-Glide fence and I would recommend you get the 36″ fence to get that fence. There is zero deflection and it’s super smooth and solid. The saw was also dialed in out of the box.
As for dust collection, I connect my Rockler 750CFM dust collector to it. I have not used the dust collection blade guard yet but even without it , the saw throws up less dust than the Jobsite. It also feels like the dust that does end up on the table top are bigger chips and whereas the Jobsite threw up more finer dust.
I would wholly recommend the Sawstop PCS. I took a look at similarly priced models from Powermatic but they were not that much cheaper than Sawstop. Pay a little bit more to get the insurance of the sawstop technology. Even without that the sawstop tech, the PCS is a great saw and top of the line.
Casual Woodworker
I have the 1.75 PCS 36″ 3 years ago and love it. Too many other reviews for other table saws close to SawStop’s price point would have 1 or 2 negative reviews (lemons) per every 10 or so reviews. My fear became wrestling a several hundred pound saw into my basement and halfway through assembly finding I had a lemon and how much a PITA it would be to deal with. There were zero complaints for Sawstop (from actual owners) except maybe about the price. I have assembled a fair number of things through the years and Sawstop has it down. Everything clearly marked and a breeze to put together. They even give you real tools for the assembly. Agree that the leveling of the wings took the longest and most fiddling. Get the mobile base with it as can’t imagine trying to add it after the fact. To me the fit and finish makes the Sawstop worth it with the safety an added bonus as Andy says. I’ve given up trying to sort the truth about their early business practices but aren’t they now owned by Festool so that argument is moot. You may regret the credit card bill, but after your first time using it, no regrets.
Andy
Totally agree with you regarding fit and finish. I just don’t have the time or desire to fiddle with a tool to get it to work correctly. I want something that is good to go from the factory from a company that has high standards for quality control. I know people have their own personal feelings towards Sawstop but from putting the politics aside, they just put out good high quality tools. Also their customer service is well known to be great after the purchase as well.
And you’re correct they are now owned by festool’s parent company.
PETE
To think if sawstop took volvos approach- Volvo’s managing director Alan Dessell is quoted as saying: “The decision to release the three-point seat belt patent was visionary and in line with Volvo’s guiding principle of safety.”
I would buy one had they took their approach. But no, never sawstop.
Steve L
From Wikipedia,
I expect SawStop’s Owner to keep the US patent protection in place as long as possible so it is not clear when other brands will offer the same protection.
Randy
I would recommend a Felder. If you want to spend less, go with a Hammer, if more, go with a Martin. Great accuracy and repeatability. In addition, these three manufacturers have excellent options and accessories.
Regardless, a slider is the way to go. I rip using the slider, rarely rip against the stationary fence. Very safe. Work is securely held and hands never need to be close to the blade. All have very functional and integrated riving knives, not an afterthought.
Phil
I was really turned off by Steve Gass & the PTI battles as well as the Ryobi v Osario case in the 2000’s during SawStop’s infancy.
It was very apparent that this was all about the money and not the safety of the end user, and I mean from both sides. It’s disingenuous…PTI was afraid of their profit margins if they were forced to use the SS tech while Gass was pushing for mandatory royalties. Both claimed it was all about safety but it really had nothing to do with that. They were all capitalist doing what capitalists do, all at the cost of the end user.
It was obviously vindictive when Gass testified for Osario claiming that no injury would have occurred if Ryobi had used his technology. He’s not wrong, but again, the argument really had nothing to do with the end user’s safety, rather patents, licensing royalties, and business disagreements between he and Ryobi.
When Bosch got involved it again became a battle of patents…Gass was in the right, but the entire situation prevented another option to save fingers & hands from hitting the market. It wasn’t the woodworker that benefitted.
The SawStop technology is awesome – I think we’ve all seen the hotdog videos and I am in no way disagreeing with that. I dislike the way that everyone involved went about it.
I hate my newer build Delta contractor saw…the riving knife had to be removed because of a manufacturing defect in the mounting mechanism that Delta refused to replace. The plastic guard covering the blade with the built-in bear traps jammed and ruined 2 pieces of lumber before I also removed that; it’s in no way a suitable replacement for the Saw-Stop technology, regardless of what PTI claims. My saw is essentially as unsafe as any of the old table saws. Aside from my router table, it’s the tool that scares me the most.
Maybe I’m unrealistic and naïve, but there is no altruism in this story and I think there could be.
Stuart
I’ve seen those hot dog-cutting videos.
When I was testing the Bosch Reaxx saw, I cut some cheese instead, and it worked just the same. I guess hot dogs look a lot like fingers. If I ever simulate finger contact with a SawStop, it’ll be with a stick of cheddar or similar.
Brad
I just bought a 10 in. Unisaw Table Saw with 36 in. Biesemeyer Fence for a Christmas present, StopSaw was never in the running. The Unisaw has way more bang for the buck compared to a basic table saw with a $200 safety gimmick (the break) and then you throw in the politics.
1.) Does it cut wood well? Yes – but so does every other cabinet saw. It has no other “must have” features.
2.) The CEO/founder is required to spin a positive story that’s his job. I followed the story closely at the time they very much tried to litigate everyone into paying for there break. I personally do not believe there poor use story.
I know allot of fellow old home woodworkers with money to burn and no one has a SawStop. I’ve only seen one SawStop in a shop and it was used to cut thin plastic sheeting only.
Stuart
How’s the dust collection on the modern Unisaws?
To be honest, I have a hard time seeing Delta as a serious contender these days. They have a strong legacy, but I haven’t seen much compelling reasons to go that path now compared to say Powermatic. I’m open-minded.
Brad
It’s an integrated bottom feed collector (blower and port) which is surprisingly good as I have a dedicated collection system in place. It beats my older saw by a mile. I would say a similar 5HP Powermatic would be better on collection but it would also be twice the price.
The features I really paid for (outside of a saw) is the Biesemeyer Fence & the dual-crank controls. A Powermatic is comparable on the dual-crank but I prefer the smaller 36″ rip over the PM 50″ just for the fence alone. I’ve used a PM at a friends shop and it’s just a vanilla system.
I’m more into those features than the safety brake, better to be careful and know your tools than rely on a mechanical safety in my opinion.
Stuart
Thank you, I appreciate it! I’ll add that option to the list.
Dave
I’m in a similar situation as you Stuart, in the sense of buying a cabinet saw. I need to remodel my current kitchen and will probably take on a farm house in the future, but this is not how I earn a living. I’m curious why “Grizzly” is not being mentioned? Is there anything wrong with that brand?
Stuart
Grizzly tends to be hit or miss for different products, and it seems some of the more value-priced offerings require more attention than more premium models. I’m still looking towards SawStop, and I’m no longer sure what my #2 pick would be. Maybe Powermatic?
I have small kids and am at the point in my life where I want more time spent using my tools than fixing/calibrating/truing equipment that’s less than perfect out of the box. I have researched Grizzly for a few of my prior purchases, and in each case they would have been the “save just a little money” choice, and I chose differently.
There’s nothing wrong with Grizzly, you just have to research each model carefully.
MM
I can concur about Grizzly being hit and miss.
I have a 5HP 240V single phase Grizzly 12″ table saw; I think it is an older model that they no longer sell. I have been extremely happy with it and I’ve had it for about 15 years now. I had no problem getting a new trunnion for it after my old business partner accidentally dropped it off the forklift; very fast service to get parts. I have helped a friend move and set up one of their jointers and a tilting spindle shaper and I wouldn’t hesitate to buy either of those tools from Grizz if I needed one.
That said, the same guy who dropped my table saw purchased a manually operated metal punch (T21321) from Grizzly and it was downright terrible; Crap quality castings, crap quality hardware, the handle didn’t even fit in the rest of the tool, the punches weren’t hardened properly and that was not a fluke as he purchased several spares and they were all garbage. Also shortly before I left my old university job a machine shop there purchased several Grizzly milling machines which were essentially Bridgeport clones. They were terrible. On one of them the table wasn’t even flat; I could fit a 6 thou feeler gage under a straightedge laid diagonally across it. I also think they must have been exaggerating the power rating of their motors as I had one of them bog down significantly taking a cut that I know a standard Bridgeport or Wells-Index of similar power and weight could easily take. I have been told that the spindle bearings on many of the machines failed after about 2 years.
Dave
Thanks, good to know!
Nathan
SO if it was me.
I would shop other devices and I wouldn’t want to count on the unique saw stop system as my safety net vs leaning and repeating common practice saw safety measures.
Why is a longer rant but for one – what if you ever use a different or someone else’s table saw. Another is the cost of blade replacements for accidental fires and other “needed extras” for the saw stop.
My other grief is the marketing nonsense they have perpetrated over and over.
Now to your other questions.
110 vs 220 – personally I would say go with 110 device if you can based on the idea that you will use it occasionally vs using it 4 hours a day. or whatever. Biggest thing the 220V saw does for you is cooling running motor under load – easier starting – and bigger bearings – longer life. If that saves you money – woohoo. If you think you would use the saw 2 hours a day, 6 days a week, etc – then you need to think about the 220V models.
Dust collection I see alot of the newer over the guard collection items but I also see where powermatic and others still have the undertable too – I say use both. I have a dewalt contractor saw that I’ve tuned up and I use both collector points.
Blades – I think you would be freeer to use whatever blades with a non-saw stop saw and I think that is quite important.
YOu will never regret getting more table space – or so I think. One saw stop thing I like is their wing table with add ons like turning it into a router table spot. Get this powermatic and jet have that too – last I looked. Fence system there are a number of add on fence modules for other saws – I have to say over all I lean toward powermatic if buying new. DO NOT however discount the idea of buying used from an estate sale.
My friend at work used a 20+ year old Delta that he gently refurbished that is a solid beast of a table saw. as it should be. He has something like 900 dollars into it at the moment. That’s mostly new fence and rebuilt motor and his outfeed table.
Also would you ever cut metal on your table saw?
Good luck and keep us posted.
Stuart
I wouldn’t cut metal on a table saw. Plastic, yes. Metal, no.
I have a 220V outlet and went with a 220V jointer. I’ve read plenty of user reviews over the years, and ultimately I see more reviews saying “I wish I went with 3HP at the start” than “I bought more than I needed.” I plan on adding more 220V outlets. This is also why I’m revisiting the idea – I could have purchased a 110V table saw previously, but figured if I’m going to upgrade it should be a bigger step up to be more future-proof.
Koko The Talking Ape
But that’s selection bias. Even if equal numbers of people overpurchased as did underpurchase, you’d see more people complain about the latter. Why? One reason is that the tool actuall works. Another is that they spent a lot of money, so they are unlikely to criticize that decision (is that “confirmation bias”)?
My brother bought the most powerful backpack blower made. He uses it twice a year. But he has money to burn. And when he does take it out, people remark on it. Just today, he helped my mother, a landlord, clean around an apartment building. The building super was impressed, and said that was a dang good blower, and he had to get one of those. Hearing that, my brother felt good, so his purchase decision is affirmed. No complaint there! But in truth, he spent maybe three times what he really needed to.
DRT
I’m with ya on everything except the 110 vs 220. My Delta contractor saw would trip 20 amp breakers all the time when it was factory wired for 110. This is one of the motors where you can open a box, swap a couple of wires, and convert to 220. I switched it to 220 and the difference in performance is clearly noticeable. Now it never trips a breaker. On 220 the thing snaps to full speed, whereas on 110 it took a second or two to “wind up”. It is clearly more powerful on 220. I have converted everything possible in my woodshop to 220.
Jared
That finger-saving tech is really cool. I’ve had a close call before – and been diligently careful with my table saw ever since. It really brought home how quickly and easily something could happen though. I keep hoping the price of the tech will come down a little so I can afford to take the plunge. For now I use my table saw somewhat rarely and try to be very mindful when I do.
Mat
Once you’ve decided to go Sawstop I think the 3HP PCS is clearly the sweet spot (and why there’s one sitting about 10 from me as I type this).
1) jobsite doesn’t have a cast iron top and does have a relatively weak fence system. Just the nature of the beast for a JSS.
2) Contractor saw does have cast iron, but comes with stamped wings, and once you add cast iron plus the T-Glide (Biesemeyer style) fence you’re getting close to PCS prices.
3) So once you’ve gotten that far, you realize the 3HPonly ends up costing around $400 more than the 1.75 and comes with the dust collecting blade guard. The extra power isn’t probably necessary, but can be handy when doing full kerf cuts through 8/4 hardwood. If you plan to keep your saw for 20+ years then the $400 is basically nothing.
One weird thing about having a SS. The possibility that you’ll trip the brake actually makes me MORE careful and attentive. It’s ridiculous when you think about it, but it’s true: I’m much more attentive with my SS than I was with my older saws. My PCS is my favorite tool in my shop. I don’t think you’ll regret getting one (though you may have to wait a bit as they do seem hard to find in some places).
Stuart Y
I have the same saw as Mat, and agree with all of his points. You’ll not regret the 3hp. I built a hardwood maple workbench, and it cut like butter. The Biesemeyer style fence is fantastic.
When cutting pressure treated wood, I just turn a key to disengage the safety feature.
Regarding Nathan’s comment above, you can use almost any blade, Forrest, Freud, etc. just make sure the blade meets the guidelines in the manual which says it must be conductive, e.g., not diamond.
Robin
So my day job is as a Sign Language Interpreter. So do I value my fingers? Absolutely!!
I was in the market (let’s be honest, I think all of us at one point or another are in the market for tools), for a new contractors table saw. I’ve owned two Craftsman Saws. One was an Emerson Electric era saw that did the job. The other was a newer Craftsman saw that I never did like.
When I started looking at a new saw, I didn’t realize how much the price had risen for saws. I didn’t want to spend $1400 for a new saw and definitely didn’t want to spend $1800 for a SawStop.
used saws of this caliber would often go for as much as a new saw. I’m not one to pay full retail price for anything used. In the end I found a Ryobi era Craftsman saw for $100 that I figure I can use until it falls apart.
Is a SawStop in my future? Maybe when the price comes down. Until then I will be VERY mindful of where my hands are at all times. After all, I use them to earn the money that’s eventually going to pay for my new saw..
fred
When I bought my Unisaw the Powermatic came only as a left-tilt saw.
I was used to a right tilt saw – so that eliminated the Powermatic. Now I’d be cautious about Delta considering their new ownership – but might be wary of Powermatic too – but that’s just based on my perspective born in the 1950’s – not any real data.
W00dy
Felder now also has such a safety feature… Expensive saw, nice german accent in the video, but no expensive replacement parts as far as I could see: https://youtu.be/kqV316iaBls
Stuart
I can’t easily find a price. This is a “contact for consultation” type of machinery.
While it doesn’t require replacement cartridges, the initial investment is going to be significant.
Alex Peel
So I priced out a Felder machine which is lower end then the format4 brand. For a saw with a slider that could handle a 4×8 sheet it was in the $10000-$12000 range depending on the options. That was the sale price which I think was $1000-$2000 less then regular. That was a much physically bigger saw then you would get with the sawstop. Not to mention the sliding part of the table requires a lot of clearance in front and in back. Very nice saw though.
Rob
I have the 36” PCS with the 3hp motor. I paid for it myself, no sponsorships here. Safety aspect aside the build quality is great, customer support is top notch, the manual being written by someone whose primary language is the same one they are writing is is huge plus. The price of their accessories are a bit ridiculous (although still very good quality at least) but for the core saw I wouldn’t get anything else if I were to get another tomorrow.
Now add in the safety aspect and it is a no brainer. Yes-if used correctly 100% of the time you don’t need the safety aspect and people use normal table saws all the time without issues because they pay attention and use their brains. I’m pretty good at paying attention and despite what my wife says use my brain at least most of the time. Sawstop covers me for those times my attention lapses or I have a moment of idiocy.
blocky
Agreed. I have 2 friends and colleagues who have partial loss of digits due to table saw accidents. Both were 2 decades plus in the shop. (One of them immediately ordered a Sawstop.) If I didn’t have a perfectly functional saw already in place, I would buy that $400 insurance policy no question.
As for the complaint that you can junk a blade and cartridge if you’re not paying attention? Well.
Ben
As a current hobby-level owner of a 3hp SawStop PCS in my 2-car garage, I have been incredibly happy with my purchase. I have triggered the brake once when I forgot to adjust my Incra miter fence while making a bevel cut, and the conduction through the aluminum fence into the blade was enough to perform an expensive test of the system.
I did get the industrial mobile base, which is great for moving the saw effortlessly, but beware there are minimal options for leveling the saw when you have this base installed. This is really an annoying issue for lining up my outfeed table in my garage which has a typical slope to the floor.
Stuart
I’ve given up on having anything perfect and level in my garage or driveway. If it’s not on adjustable leveling feet with ball-joint pads, forget about it.
Bill
I have the original CNS, 1.75 HP. It’s an awesome saw, well built, slightly under powered for some applications. If I had 220V readily available, I would get the 3HP. I’ve triggered the brake once, which was my fault. I maladjusted my aluminum miter fence and it made contact. I’ve cut pressure treated, air dried, kiln dried lumber, plywood and MDF with no issue. I don’t think the “wet wood” concern is terribly valid. It would have to be dripping wet, which would cause rust anyway, to trigger the brake. I don’t think staples or even screws would trigger it either unless it was also in contact with a human. It works off of the capacitance of a human. When in doubt you can run a simple test by holding the material against the blade and watching the indicator light or simply places the saw in bypass mode.
I recently severely injured my right index finger in an incident unrelated to woodworking. It has effected nearly everything I do since I’m right handed. I would gladly pay many more dollars than a saw stop table saw to have my finger back in working order. I do have friends missing fingers from table saws and they have the similar opinion. Some injuries don’t heal.
Dean. K
“Some injuries don’t heal” Including all the naysayers pride after they have had a table saw accident. I just cant get over the fact that people STILL bring up a a decades old argument about Sawstop and legislation activists. Those people are no longer in charge at Sawstop. get over yourselves or come up with new arguments.
Rich
I think lots of us have been going through the same calculation. I am also upgrading from my workhorse Dewalt contractors mobile table saw to a cabinet table saw.
After lots of research my opinion is that SawStop does make some of the high quality machines on the market. The safety feature is a bonus cherry on top.
However, the cost is almost 60-90% more than a decent model from another brand.
In my case, after analyzing the options, I chose a Grizzly G1023RL with 3 HP. With delivery and widely available 10% discount code cost was $1528. A PCS 1.75 HP SawStop with the 36″ fence with delivery costs $2869. A 3 HP would be $3299.
Either SawStop represents a pretty good premium.
IMO the SawStop is probably a higher quality product, but I am not sure its quality is worth that much premium. A good blade in a well tuned Grizzly will almost assuredly produce results more than adequate for my skill and type of work. Not machining parts for the space shuttle…
There is no doubt that I would buy the SawStop at a more competitive price. But not sure I can justify the price.
My Grizzly is on back order for several months so my options are open and no doubt I have gone back a looked at the SawStop site a couple of times asking myself, with a stimulus check, would I, could I get one? Haven’t pulled that trigger yet.
I keep perusing ads for a good used table saw, but they are few and far between. Have an inside line on an older SawStop from a Senior Center woodshop that my friend the supervisor hopes to refurbish and sell, but who knows if that will pan out….
Meanwhile, I struggle with whether there is a better choice than the Grizzly I have on order….
Stuart
When you look at brands such as Grizzly though, you have to very thoroughly research the model numbers. Some import tools are great values, others are cheaper tools at cheaper prices.
When shopping for a jointer, I really wanted a Hammer jointer-planer, but the expense and complexity of ordering, installation, and delivery kept me from committing. A few brands make similarly-styled models that are more widely available here, but I’ve read about major problems and frustrations with each and every one of them.
When SawStop’s jobsite table saw came in, I was deeply impressed with the packaging materials and the state in which it arrived. THAT is a company I would order from in a heartbeat. Some other companies trim the costs when it comes to shipping, and one in x-number of customers will have frustrations or problems because of it. I never like being that customer. That’s also why I drag my feet on equipment and machinery purchases, I have to be prepared for time time it takes to remedy things when they go wrong with initial delivery or setup.
RKA
It seems you have mentally prepared yourself to commit the space a cabinet saw will require. That’s a big issue for some. I agree about the inconveniences of track saws and portable saws. I have both and won’t give up my track saw, but a cabinet saw does have its advantages, as you have rightfully pointed out.
I don’t think you mentioned price. That’s another big one for many, but it seems you’re willing to spend the money on something that will last you decades and bring some efficiency to your shop. So that’s not an overriding factor.
There are of course other great options like a PM2000. But for me, that extra measure of insurance is worth it’s weight and I don’t think you’re sacrificing one bit going with a SS vs, other options. The thing that I always come back to is how often have I been hurt around tools? It happens, each time I learn and try to be more careful. Every time I reflect, I either saw it coming or I should have. Thankfully I’m a lot more complacent with a screwdriver than I am with a spinning saw blade, so the cost of mistakes has been nothing more than a nuisance. Does that mean I’ll be complacent with a saw blade just because it has a safety mechanism? No. Exposed moving metal blades on any machine tend to have my utmost respect (the evil screwdriver, less so). Slicing off my fingers is more than a nuisance and it’s hard for me to put a price tag on that. Then there is the issue with having kids in the shop one day. You can do your utmost to teach them and train them so they are every bit as diligent as you are. But….
As to 3hp vs 5hp. 3 is more than enough to rip through 8/4 lumber all day. For a hobby shop, I’m not sure there is any reason to upgrade to a 5. 1.75? Well, if you’re trying to save a few dollars, sure. Make sure it always has the right blade on it and it will serve you well. But if the extra money for the 3 isn’t going to break you, it will slice through anything you feed in it (except the hot dog).
Industrial vs. PCS. It’s heavier, much heavier. I liked the larger table. Really beefy trunnions I’ve heard. If this is a saw used day in and day out, all day, I’m sure it could be justified. For a hobby shop, much harder to justify, more so if you need to get it down a flight of stairs.
Everyone lands in a different place weighing all the factors. But reading all your thoughts, I think the safety tech would be the swing factor if it was me. Of course, it’s not me.
Whatever you get, you will enjoy it! Looking forward to reading about the projects that will follow!
MoogleMan3
Sawstop is absolutely the best cabinet saw on the market. Even aside from the blade brake, which is worth the price of admission, it’s an amazingly well-built saw.
I couldn’t care less about the “politics” behind it. What matters to me, is that if something terrible happens, and my hands get pulled into the blade, I won’t have a huge ER bill, months, if not years of recovery, and I won’t have to give up all of the hobbies of mine which involve heavy use of my hands (aside from woodworking, there’s electronics, tinkering, computers, video games, painting, etc.).
So yeah, worth every penny, and best saw on the (US) market.
Koko The Talking Ape
If it were me, I would get the biggest SawStop I could, because I know people (and I’m one of those people) typically undervalue preventative safety measures like the SawStop finger-saver. They say things like, “I hear of more kickback injuries than losing fingers” or, “I paid a bundle for that safety feature and never had to use it once.”
Well that’s the nature of safety features. Nobody will ever want to pay the price for those features, even if they’re very cheap, because they think they’ll never need it. And largely speaking, they’re right. But if they do ever need it, they will really need it.
The calculation is called “expectation,” and it’s probability times cost (or benefit.) If the probability of something happening, like winning a lottery say, is 1/1,000, and the prize is $1,000, then your “expectation” is $1. If your lottery ticket costs less than $1, that’s a bargain. In the SS case, if the chances of losing a few fingers are 1/1,000, but the cost of losing that finger (insofar as that can be measured) is -$100,000 (negative because it’s a loss), then your expectation is -$100, and that’s what you should be willing to pay to prevent that loss (on top of the price of the saw.)
But if people rely on intuition, they won’t make that calculation correctly.People don’t correctly price out the cost of rare events. There is lots of psych and economics research on this. It also applies to infection control measures in hospitals, funding public health departments, etc. It’s why safety measures such as car seatbelts often have to be mandated by law, because most people will just gamble on the odds, and in economic terms, will undervalue those safety measures.
In other words, the SS is probably a bargain, but one that few people will recognize.
“Should I just build a larger base for a portable jobsite or contractor-style table saw?” You’d think somebody like Bora or even Kreg would make a base for contractor table saws to make them more stable, add infeed and outfeed wings, etc.
RICHARD S RUETTIGER
Good and interesting analysis. How often have most of us thought about cancelling an insurance policy because we “don’t need it, didn’t use it.” After all, aren’t the insurance companies getting rich off us? Bad mistake if you do cancel it, then you need it. How would a lost finger change your life? Think about it. No, really…think about THAT.
I’m a weekend woodworker with a year old PCS. Everything works well on it. Haven’t had any misfires. Love the piece of mind, while still being extra careful. Other brand name saws will cut just as good. But why not get the extra insurance. I’m not a pro. But the ones that have commented here… I appreciate their sage advice.
Nathan
So insurance – it’s been brought up a few times.
do you have any loss insurnace or other insurnace for you when you work in the shop. I have a personal injury insurnace policy general purpose that covers a number of things. Curious now that I read this – if they would give me any discount for owning a saw stop product over other.
I’d consider that more if that was the case. But I still think you would run the included risk of leaning and relying on a safety feature on your saw that you have on no other dangerous equipment in your shop. Aside from the kick back vs cut off issues – and I will say I know more people injured over kickback than blade cut. But I also hear about drill mishaps, and router table mishaps etc. again more rare I suppose but I just worry about getting complacent. I see it in the hangar often.
But the insurance question is interesting.
Also on the outlet thing. One nifty thing I’m planning for my 2- 220 V outlets is making them with a breakout box and separated 110 outlets or switching. I saw that in a shop once and I really like the idea. Also on the saw power thing I find that interesting too. my dewalt contractor saw with it’s lowly 110V 15Amp rated motor seems to cut Walnut and Maple just dandy. with a 50 tooth combo blade on there. I’ve not tried with anything higher – never needed to really. But gee I just don’t see the need for a 3HP rated motor unless it’s a constant use concern. Then I see it. Ok maybe if I was to cut 8/4 maple it might come into play, I was only cutting milled 4/4.
Of items I think would benefit most from 22V and higher power. Planner, and band saw. big throat band saw that is. Jointer maybe. if 10in or bigger bed
But if you have it – use it. certainly. Regardless good luck and post up what you end up with though I get the impression you’ve already made up your mind.
Stuart
I’ve looked into it a LOT over the years. Some are happy with the 110V saw, others insist that 3HP is the sweet spot.
This isn’t the kind of tool one can easily return if they make the wrong choice and want to upgrade later.
fred
I’d first caution you that life is full of compromises – nothing is perfect. All of the saws your are considering a decent tools and each would likely expand your capabilities for serious woodworking. But why skimp now on a 110V saw? For a % more cost you will have more power and a better running tool. Then if you have concerns about how safe you will be with a Powermatic or Unisaw – bite the bullet and accept the other compromises that the Sawstop brings. Dismissing the Hammer – is a bit of a different issue – it adds some safety – in different ways than the Sawstop – but obviously lacks flesh sensing – and brings some added concerns because of its sourcing.
Also – waiting a year or so is not likely to bring with it lots of new options(only added inflationary cost) – so if you have projects in the queue that would benefit from having a cabinet saw and have the money – why not bite the bullet now?
Big Richard
Clearly you’ve never listened to Fleetwood Mac’s 1977 album, Rumors. Pretty sure that was perfect.
fred
Bill Haley and the Comets were more my era
Stuart
One of the reasons for waiting was because it’s a big and fairly irreversible decision. Committing the footprint, budget, and time to a table saw is a big deal.
I am as equally interested in metalworking as I am woodworking, and so I had to wait until need-based priority became clearer.
Now I’m cleaning up (again), and I made decision to add more 220V placements, and that has helped with the decision.
Dean K
Stuart “This isn’t the kind of tool one can easily return if they make the wrong choice and want to upgrade later.”
Have you seen the resale market? IF you can find one you are going to pay pretty damn close to retail for a used PCS. Believe me. Should you decide that the 3hp PCS is not for you, you will have absolutely no trouble unloading it for close to what you paid for it. I have been looking on Facebook Marketplace for months, Sawstops are few and far between.
Stuart
In general, I really don’t like the hassle of selling. Packing up and delivering something like this is a chore if someone couldn’t pick it up. Plus, there are so many scams out there.
I’d rather make the right choice the first time.
Lynyrd
Powermatic, Delta Unisaw, Hamer are some of the makers mechanically better than Saw Stop. However, having recently almost losing a finger to one of the aforementioned, I will replace it with a Professional Series Saw Stop given my first opportunity.
I also use my fingers to type for work (Project Manager), restore cars, play guitar, and golf, I find those appendages to be essential.
conor
For me, I’d say the simple answer in a home shop is that the extra cost of the SawStop’s safety features and minimal quality difference to similarly priced saws puts it at the top of my list. I find that discussions of low likelihood, high consequence risks like your hand contacting a saw blade are challenging to quantify. Any table saw can kick back, and any non-SawStop saw can cut you badly from a blade contact. For me, someone who uses a table saw regularly but not for a living, a couple of hundred dollars is worth mitigating one of those two risks.
I’ve used a number of Sawstop cabinet saws over the years as a hobbyist for furniture making and house projects, and have been very happy with their accuracy and ease of use. These saws all lived in school or hobby shop environments, which meant that they were minimally maintained, but still were all either accurate or easily adjusted.
All of that said, I’ve been slowly saving up for a cabinet saw to replace my contractor’s saw in my home shop. Personally, I only feel comfortable using a table saw with a riving knife, and find splitters too fiddly when switching to a crosscut sled, dado stack, and back to rip, so older cabinet saws like Unisaws are out of the running for me. With that in mind, the Euro sliding saws tick all of my boxes (riving knife, stable cabinet, 3HP or greater, available single phase, sliding table to simplify cross-cutting safely, available 12″ blades, etc.), except for price.
The Grizzly saws are tempting at the price, but the morass of part numbers and mixed long-term reviews of quality put me off. So, in the realm of a ~$3k Powermatic or a $3.5k SawStop, I’d pay $500 extra for the brake cartridge.
The only time that I’ve seen the safety brakes engage was with body parts and wet wood (PT, rough lumber that didn’t get measured for moisture, reclaimed with nails, etc.). The staples in hardware store lumber aren’t enough to set off the mechanism, in my experience. When an accident did set it off, it was pretty amazing to watch someone rip a board with good technique, then forget where their hands were, bring their wrist too close to the blade while pulling back, and have the saw drop instantly. The underside of their wrist had a cut that looked like a small splinter had been pulled out, instead of a nasty, nasty hospital visit. We all have the best of intentions and self-imposed codes of conduct in the shop, but mistakes happen. Nobody strictly needs a SawStop’s safety features, but if you have the money and are happy with the quality of the saw, why not use that to buy down a bit of risk?
James
I have a 3HP SawStop PCS. And even without the safety system, its the best traditional style table saw on the market. The precision, consistency, and customer service are all far better than the other machinery manufacturers I’ve had experience with.
If I were to move on from SawStop, it’d have to be to a European style saw, which clearly seem to have their advantages, and seem to be designed to minimize the types of injury you’d see on that old Unisaw from the 50s that your friend’s uncle sold you for $250.
Brandon
I have been using Sawstop saws for seven years in a high school wood shop with little issue; I have both models 3 & 5 hp units. The safety feature is great, as is the fence’s ability to slide back and forth on the table, but the rest of the saw is average. If you do decide on one, have an extra brake cartridge on hand, regularly clean and inspect the dust collection system inside the cabinet, AND – most importantly – have a voltage line filter/surge suppresser installed. In the spring of 2017 my school had a voltage spike that took out both of the control boards in the saws and melted the switch on my adjustable speed Powermatic drill press (the one with the DRO display).
Matt R
What I think people are failing to realize when they bring up Volvo giving away the seat belt patent, is that at the time Volvo did that, they had already been in business for over 30 years, they were a well established company. In Sawstop’s infancy they initially tried to license their technology to other manufactures, but nobody wanted to pay for it. So guess what, Sawstop started making their own table saw. Sawstop would have been shooting themselves in the foot to license it after they made a tremendous investment in producing their own table saw. It all boils down to corporate greed, the big guys were too stingy to buy the license when it first came out, and now these mulit billion dollar companies are trying to make themselves the “victim” because mean Sawstop is suing anyone that’s just trying to make people safe by making a saw with brake technology.
tim Rowledge
We have a SawStop at my local Makerspace. It’s nice and solid. People seem to like it.
I have a nice big MiniMax CU300 at home that I bought 17 years ago just before moving up to Canada; it’s much nicer. Better for safety -your fingers don’t need to get near the blade, and kickback is extremely unlikely on the slider. Better quality of cut with the scoring blade. Better dust collection. Better precision with a 4ft long mitre fence supported at both ends.
Oh, and it includes a 12” jointer, a 12” planer, a large capacity shaper that benefits from the slider, and a heavy duty mortiser.
The space it requires is not actually any more than any other table saw – it’s defined by the space you need clear for the material. If you’re cutting an 8×4 sheet you need 4ft before and after the blade and 8 ft to the side.
Quite probably the best tool buy I’ve ever made.
Joseph
We have a sawstop cabinet saw at work. I find it every bit as good as the powermatic we had before someone lost a finger. People that complain about the $200 to replace a blade and cartridge have clearly never shelled out for a hospital bill+disability+PT+etc. It can run tens of thousands of dollars.
When you spend your career not getting hurt you tend to operate under confirmation bias. Just because you got lucky 10,000x, does not mean that you will continue to be lucky. It only takes one time to really screw up your life. Humans for the most part are terrible at evaluating risk accurately. How often do you put your seat belt on? Every time.
Get the sawstop you think best matches your needs and do not look back.
James
I wish there was a ‘like’ button for this comment.
I’ve also heard that the vast majority of accidents are pros who get tired and a little careless when they should have stopped for the day or just taken 15 minutes off. This makes intuitive sense to me, given the very small margin of error between a cut that goes fine and one that doesn’t.
If pros who know better (and inevitably already have at least one 9 fingered coworker) are the ones who make the silly mistake, I’d gladly pay up to take my accidental stupidity out of the equation.
Steve G
Stuart have you had a chance to see the Felder PCS in action? It doesn’t destroy blades so that’s a big plus.
Stuart
I have not.
Given the price tag and commercial or industrial target audience, there’s little chance I’ll ever be able to see it in person.
grady
I believe there is a young boy who would like to work in the garage with DADDY. We try to teach our children the safety procedures, but with children, there attention span is shorter. and can’t wait to see and touch that shiny spinning thing.
I Know This To Be True. I Was That Little Boy once.
JZ
I use my table saw but of all my woodworking tools it is the only one that intimidates me. I am uber cautious an will try to use band saw, mitre saw or even my Rockwell bladerunner first.
Tool Junkie
I’ve had a Bosch mobile jobsite saw, a Jet 3hp cabinet saw with 52″ fence, a Felder w/ 12″ blade (12″ jointer/planer) and now a SawStop. I’ve been woodworking for about 20 years and was around when SS first came out. I was PO’d about the other companies not taking the licensing opportunity to save thousands of fingers; however, I was also PO’d about Gass trying to force it on the public.
Years have passed. I have enjoyed the woodworking. I found that the extra size of the 52″ fence did not help when cutting sheet goods, as the panels were too hard to manage and you pretty much had to have a 6′ outfeed table. I loved the Felder, but it was too hard to cut sheet goods on it (4′ slider). I ended up getting a track saw and cut down my sheet goods in the driveway, then stored them in the garage for later use.
I sold my Felder when I moved from my 3 car garage to my small 2 car garage. I agree that a slider (especially one that has a 9′ carriage and can handle sheet goods) would be ideal; however, the balk is the $$$ and the space that it takes up. The other thing is the lead time is crazy, due to Covid. I have a 16″ jointer/planer that was ordered back in June of 2020 and is not scheduled to make it to the US until May of 2021 (I’m retiring at the end of this month and it was paid for last year).
I got over being PO’d about SS and actually looked at the saw and read reviews. The reviews ALL put it at the top of the pack, even without the built in safety. I ended up with a 3hp PCS w/ 36″ fence. It’s been ideal. The fit and finish are better than the Jet was. The blade brake has not been set off in 3 years of use. I’m just as careful with it as any other saw that I’ve had. I don’t like my cast iron rusted, so I don’t cut wet wood. It cuts thru 8/4 walnut or purpleheart like butter. I put Jessem anti-kick rollers on the fence (removable with Magswitches). I have the mobile base; however, it was a bad choice, as you can only move the saw from the long end. If I were to do it over again, I’d spend the money on the Industrial Base, so that I could move it in any direction.
I don’t see a reason to purchase the Industrial 5hp version, other than it would have a couple of extra inches of cast iron on the table surface. I would not purchase the 52″ fence, even for a router table, as I use a separate router table. I doubt I will sell the saw or replace it.
I’m retiring, due to an on-the-job career ending injury. I can’t use my dominate arm to lift much anymore. I could not imagine trying to type or even doing day to day stuff after cutting off some fingers. That would also have been a career ender.
My buddy cut off his finger this last year. He turned his table saw off and turned to look at what the dog was barking at. When he turned, his finger passed into the still turning blade. He took his finger (on ice) to the hospital, but they couldn’t re-attach it. His Dr. bills were over $10k and he still didn’t get the finger back. He uses “hot hands” most days, as the stub still throbs.
If you could buy an insurance policy for $500 to prevent a table saw amputation, would it be worth it? My friend sure thinks it would have been.
Stuart
Thank you for that feedback!! I haven’t seen many compelling reasons to go against the SawStop path yet.
Charlie
I waited too long to get a cabinet saw. Can’t believe I’m saying this, but I’m going to skip it and get a large format CNC instead.
Stuart
I considered this as well. I do want a more capable benchtop CNC router than what I have now, but I don’t only work with sheet goods. Large format CNCs also don’t move out of the way quite so easily.
Plus, there’s the cost…
Nathan
So do you all not use your table saw blade guards? There is really one one operation I do without them and that’s dado’s. which I do very rarely.
Otherwise I have one of the newer style dual pawl (not sure what to call it) spring loaded, guards with the anti-kickback saw tool pawls behind it.
One thing I so which a table saw would have is a blade brake like a mitre saw – perhaps tuned a little different but similar in idea. Might need a knee switch to use it right though or a light gate.
Meanwhile what is the cost difference. Saw stop 3Hp job vs ___________ say Jet or powermatic.
Also I have to ask since you mentioned metal work – why would you not consider cutting metal on a table saw when there are so many options for blades that cut AL and Steel. now on the surface I get the idea of metal shavings down in the motor or lift/tilt mechanism but with good dust collection systems I suspect that is very minimal. I say that because with limited shop space myself I do plan on cutting metal with a table saw if I got one with a strong motor.
Also the more I think about it I’ll retract my comment on the 110V model.
Keith
Several people have commented on whether it is worth upgrading from the Sawstop PCS 1.75 hp (110v) to the 3hp (220v) saw. Without getting into that debate, one thing to keep in mind with the Sawstop PCS is that the 1.75hp saw can be upgraded to a 3hp motor later on, if needed. The cost to upgrade is about the same as the price difference between the 1.75hp and 3hp saws. Except for the motor and the dust collection blade guard (an optional accessory on the 1.75hp saw), the saws are exactly the same. Of course, if you feel that you need the extra power, buy the 3 hp saw. But, there is no need to worry about getting an inadequate saw if you buy the 1.75hp version. You can always upgrade the saw to the larger motor if your needs change.
Charles
My guards are sitting on the shelf. I watch my blade height, my method, my board preparation, and inspect my board. I keep push sticks and push blocks close when cutting narrow stock. It is important to be aware of the behavior of the board as it is being cut. Keeping it against the fence is most important when ripping. The throat plate opening is extremely important in narrow ripped stock. Always make a zero clearance throat plate if cutting lots of thin strips. I taught woodworking for 29 years and try to make sure each student understands the machine and what causes kickbacks etc. I always show kickbacks from fence problems to crosscut guide used with a fence without the proper clearance block. I have also used many of the guards, and hold down devices. For students I would only support use of an out feed one way turning roller that allows room for the students to push it past the blade. This helps it stay against the fence, keeps the board down against the table and will not allow the board to come backwards.
Terry
If you purchase any other brand of table saw and then have an accident with a significant cut or amputation, you’ll know you bought the wrong tool. I have a PCS-175. It’s an excellent, accurate saw. I’d never go back.
DRT42
Sigh. If we really need a $3000 saw to cut lumber, then hobbyist woodworking is dead.
Piranha Man
That’s a good point. It made me think. But then I realized it misses the mark a bit. Take any good cabinet saw in that class – the PM1000 is currently $2230, the Laguna Fusion is $2199 etc. So the question is really….If you’re going to buy a good cabinet saw anyway, is it worth an extra $1000 to have some protection against finger amputation? For me, the answer is yes, but I fully understand it if it too big a hill to climb for someone else. Either way, it’s an expensive tool to cut a piece of lumber if that’s all your doing.