After I posted my initial Bosch Reaxx table saw review, a couple of requests came in for a SawStop comparison.
I’d drooled over their contractor and cabinet saws at a Woodworking Show last year, and they somewhat recently came out with a portable jobsite saw. Sure, a comparison, or at least a standalone SawStop review, seems like something I’d be interested in. So I got in touch with a SawStop VP and we got talking.
Advertisement
Prelude
Let me start off by saying that I’ve been hugely critical of SawStop in the past. A few years ago, reports came out that they were lobbying the US consumer product safety commission, to make flesh detection and injury mitigation mechanisms mandatory safety features in all table saws. With SawStop holding multiple patents and being the only option at the time, it seemed like they were driven by the prospect of huge licensing sums.
This didn’t sit well with anyone, and I must say, it really colored my views of the brand.
But my views of SawStop had changed in the past year, softening somewhat. How and why?
As mentioned, I drooled over some of the saws that SawStop brought to the WoodWorking Show. The smoothness of the fence and overall quality of the machines had convinced me that someday, when I am ready for a full-size table saw, I might be in the market for a SawStop.
When my kids are a little older, what kind of saw would I want them to use at home? At school?
I’ve been spending a bit of time on forums and YouTube, and have seen quite a few woodworkers and DIYers using SawStop saws. There was one thing that they all seemed to have in common, and that’s customer satisfaction. SawStop users love their saws, and seem to be well taken care of by the company in the rare occurrence something goes wrong.
Advertisement
All of this gradually opened my mind.
The Call
We talked about quite a few things, including SawStop’s history, and a lot about their saws, especially the recently introduced Jobsite Saw.
I can’t tell you about the specifics, but I can tell you that it was an extremely illuminating discussion.
I feel better about SawStop, which is quite surprising even to myself, given how much I loathed them in the past.
I’ve never met Stephen Gass, the most well-known of SawStop’s founders. He’s got a doctorate in physics and worked as a patent attorney, and the media portrayed him as wanting to force brands to line his pockets with licensing fees.
The VP I spoke to seemed to have genuine admiration and respect for Gass, and talked of him in a much different light than is typical of critics. It’s not what the VP said that was impactful, but his attitude and genuine belief in what he was saying.
While the VP’s position might make him a less impartial judge of character, his words were impactful enough to make me regret being so critical of Gass without hearing both sides of things.
And he definitely got me excited to get my hands on a test sample of the jobsite saw in my workshop for review and comparison. Given all the features we talked about, I’m tempted to put a big project on hold until the test sample comes in. It sounded amazingly user-friendly.
Given my stance now, I wouldn’t hesitate to plunk down the cash for one of the larger SawStop models, if I had the space, upgraded electric, and need of a large table saw. I really need to get some more outlets, separate lines, and possibly also 220V service to my workspace. And a bigger workspace. And some nice dust collection ductwork. But yea, my stance has changed enough to where I’d spend cash money on a SawStop over other full-size saw models.
Current Considerations
What is SawStop doing now? I’m done stewing over what happened several years ago. So let’s talk about what’s happening now.
Well, there’s that SawStop vs. Bosch lawsuit. After reading through the complaint, I can’t really fault them for that. More about table saw lawsuits here. They believe that Bosch and their Reaxx saw are infringing on their patents, and several retailers had told them that they would prefer to stock the Reaxx saw over SawStop’s – I’m guessing this is due to limited retail space.
The have a responsibility to defend their patents, and whether they’re right or not is up to a judge to decide. And they recently did decide in favor of SawStop, at least partially, although more work and time in court is needed before things are final.
SawStop owners seem to be quite pleased with their purchases, and SawStop customer service seems to be widely praised.
From my WoodWorking Show inspection, SawStop quality feels very good. It just felt like a more refined product, if that makes sense.
What is SawStop Doing Now?
This is what I’ve been asking myself, to figure out where I stand. Well, it looks like they make good saws – and I should know soon enough how good their jobsite saw is – and it’s hard to find SawStop users that regret their purchases.
I haven’t quite done a complete 180, but I’m definitely a lot more open minded. They’ve at least earned the benefit of the doubt from me.
The title of this post is catchy, but a little misleading. My stance had already been softening, changing already on its own. Still, the conversation and all I learned had brought me a long way back to neutral, maybe even over into positive territory.
It’s been what, 5 years since that whole CPSC business first came to light? The reasonable person in me wants to see SawStop for what they’re doing in the here and now. Yes, they’re involved in a lawsuit with Bosch right now, but any company in their position would be doing the same.
It’s easy to join in the common SawStop-bashing mob mentality, and in hindsight I might have been guilty of this too.
But forget about that CPSC issues from a few years ago, and there’s not much left to complain about.
That all said, I’ve got the Bosch Reaxx saw on the figurative test bench, a Dewalt saw that I’ve really enjoyed using, and a SawStop jobsite saw is on the way. Although my initial interest was a little soft, I now can’t wait to see how the SawStop compares against the Dewalt, Bosch, and other portable saws I’ve used in the past.
I am now cautiously optimistic, both about SawStop as a brand, and their products.
Your questions, comments, and opinions are of course welcome! I know that emotions and feelings can be intense, and that opinions about SawStop can be very polarized. All I ask is that you be respectful towards each other.
Tim
I like to think of the whole thing this way.
Imagine if you had created a very expensive safety feature that can stop someone from winding up with a missing appendage, you went through all the loopholes, patent processes, and other associated confuddlery, only to have your small product, from your small company, copied even if just in the spirit of the idea, by a large conglomerate.
There’s nothing wrong with sawstop for trying to get safety regulations enforced, there’s nothing wrong with then for sewing Bosch, and there’s nothing wrong with them trying to profit from the product they created even if it forces other companies to liscence their patents.
You would want to make your money, and if other companies wanted you to be safe they could have used their massive R&D budgets to build something like this many years ago and save a lot of people alot of fingers.
Sorry,
Rant over.
Steve
Well said. It’s so easy to get into the mindset of: “F**ck em, they’re just another big greedy corporation”, that you tend to forget that the company had to start out small at some point, and still is made up of people who may just be trying to feed their families instead of trying to buy that new bentley.
Diplomatic Immunity
“There’s nothing wrong with sawstop for trying to get safety regulations enforced”
You’re wrong. What you just described is lobbying and crony capitalism. There is everything wrong with it. Who’s to saying Sawstop’s patent would have been licensed out for cheap? A safety regulation just increases the cost of business onto the small employer. And this “all in the need of safety” is such a bs excuse. If you have a problem working with a table saw then maybe you’re in the wrong line of work especially when new ones all work properly. If you wanted added safety on your table saw then go for it and buy a Sawstop BUT DON’T dictate that everyone needs to have Sawstop technology in their tablesaw.
Tim
Sorry, I’m obviously terribly mistaken.
Good thing we didn’t bow to the bubble wrap nazi lobbyist jerks who wanted to put seatbelts, ABS and airbags into our cars.
I have no problem using a tablesaw without these added features.
What I have a problem with is the technology becoming mandatory anyways (which it will, because OSHA, and IDIOTS… I forgot what that last acronym is for) and Bosch, SBD, and other companies being able to walk on the small guy without paying for it because certain people didn’t want it in the first place, because that will happen.
They deserve their money because they were the only one to care about your fingers 15 years ago.
Jim
“Good thing we didn’t bow to the bubble wrap nazi lobbyist jerks who wanted to put seatbelts, ABS and airbags into our cars.”
I do understand what you are trying to say, but your logic is flawed. The safety features you mention have been implemented for several reasons but most importantly for the protection of people that do not know what they are and do not know they are beneficial to their protection, i.e. children. When was the last time you saw a child go into a store and buy a table saw? In addition, the features you mention are not only for the protection of the user of the vehicle. Plus, it is kind of impractical to compare transit safety requirements to a table saws.
Personally, I like competition. It benefits all of us. So I will wait until their patents expire and then see what is available. I have been using a table saw for over 30 years. I think I can wait another 4-5 for better products and better prices.
Chris
Except that Volvo patented the seat belt in 1959, and then gave away the patent to everyone for free because they weren’t pricks just trying to line their pockets. If you want to pay off the government to away all available options force everyone to use only your amazing safety product, you better offer the patent license for free or cheap, otherwise you are an asshole just out to line your pockets.
Gass could sell the patent license for very cheap, make good money for himself, and make many table saws safer. But instead, he hoards the patent, which is fine, but then that ass tries to use government regulations to hand him a total monopoly on a silver platter, and that’s not okay.
Bernie
Two things:
Volvo may have given one patent away in 1959, but this is very very rare.
Governments and lawyers regularly cause dangerous products and methods to be banned. The statistics for table saw injuries are horrid, so the days of the unprotected table saw are probably limited, especially in the workplace. SS technology may actually ensure the do-gooders are kept away for a long time to come.
Steve
Volvo patented the three point design. Before that seat belts were just 2 point design. Kudo’s to Volvo for not enforcing patent protection. However, it was the work of 1 engineer over a year in a really big company, with little impact on the bottom line for a low cost design element. Probably judged not economically beneficial to enforce a patent.
Gas tried to license the safety device, as you recommended, but every manufacturer rejected him. So he takes on the enormous risk of starting a table saw manufacturing company in the USA. Inventing and selling a breakthrough product is the American dream. I’ll grant you, trying to get the govermnet to require his product be used was unseemly. However, I’m all for celebrating someone who diverted his career to a product of his own invention.
MichaelHammer
It’s not illegal, but it’s still not ok for companies to try to get their propietary product made into a law. If I want the safety feature, I’ll buy the safety feature. Don’t force me to buy the safety feature. It’s gross. Companies do this stuff all the time. We should get rid of all lobbyist .
Marvin McConoughey
I agree with your position, Michael. Legislating safety by mandating a proprietary solution is unwise because it leads to a monopoly market position. I recently considered a Saw
Stop table saw but was taken aback by the very high cost. The Delta 36-L336 saw I settled on is not only competent, but comes with a superb set of safety equipment to keep my hands away from the blade. Is it better? Yes, for me, because I had money left over to help pay for such things as premium sound suppressant ear muffs, a muffler for my central dust system, and the dust collection system itself. There are many aspects to total personal safety and consumers should be able to choose the mix that works best for them.
Carlyle
Well put! Perspective. Many would benefit from gaining some.
MT_Noob
Stuart, I am totally surprised that I find myself in disagreement with you. Not about the politics, or history, or opinions about the patent system. I see room for multiple opinions in all those areas, and I doubt that we can solve those items here.
Where I disagree is with the Sawstop contractor saw VS the Bosch saw. My requirements were that I wanted a portable saw (space constraints) and some sort of safety feature either Sawstop or Reaxx. I was all set to plunk down the cash when the saw stop contractor saw was available. I was in the store within a week of it being on the market with my credit card ready to go. And I was completely disappointed in the quality of the saw. The fence was horribly out of alignment and the fit and finish of everything looked like it was made by a company different than the ones making their other saws. Yes I know it is not fair to compare their cabinet saws to contractor saws. But I also expected at that price point to have a fence that was somewhat aligned. Even someone that was not a woodworker could take a look from a few feet back and see that it was not square to the blade. So I held off and waited. Then I checked out the same model at a different store. This one was slightly better but still not worth it from my perspective. So I waited for the Bosch to come out. Once the Bosch came out, I checked it out. And while the fence is still not exactly what I hoped for, it was still much better (in my opinion) than the sawstop. Ideally I would prefer the option to put on an aftermarket Beysmeyer or something like that.
I know you are comparing the Bosch against the DeWalt, but what I’d really like to see is a comparison of the Reaxx against the Sawstop contract saw. I think that is the closest apples to apples comparison. I guess that is what you have in mind and I am looking forward to those results. Because again, I did not have any preference going in and I was really disappointed with the sawstops contractor model once I got a close up hands on view of it.
And as always thanks for the great posts you do.
Stuart
Maybe I hadidn’t manhandled the cabinet saw at the Woodworking Show?
It was either a cabinet saw or the contractor saw with upgraded T-Glide fence.
MT_Noob
I do hope you are able to do a comparison of the stock sawstop contractor against the stock reaxx. Just so that I can can see your opinion on the guides. I could be completely wrong, since I am no expert, just someone slowly getting into woodworking. It just seemed to me that the Sawstop was going to need much ore work getting the fence aligned out of the box compared to the Bosch. And I know that floor models may not be the best guide, but that is what I had to go with. I look forward to you unboxing a sawstop and seeing how that goes.
(It is a shame that you have to delay your project, unless of course it is one of those you don’t mind delaying…)
: )
BonPacific
It looks like your only real option with aftermarket fences is to get a Rousseau stand that comes with a separate fence. The 2790 model supports the Bosch 4100, which I believe has the same table as the Reaxx.
MT_Noob
Thanks, I previously tried searching to see what options if any were available to upgrade the fence and did not have much success. I just figured I have to live with the stock fence. This looks like it might be a good option. Thanks for the tip.
Eric
FWIW, the fence is extremely easy to adjust. Mine came almost perfectly square, and adjusting it the last tiny, tiny bit was a breeze.
Tom
I don’t doubt that when the times comes for me to buy a table saw, I will get a Sawstop. Like you, I may not like the way the company has behaved in the past, nor some of their press, but when it comes down to it….. I like my fingers a lot more.
Plus, I too have kids in the house so I always have to worry about them getting curious about tools and getting into things when they shouldn’t. Having a Sawstop just puts my mind at ease a little more.
RKA
Frankly I could care less about the politics. If the saw lives up to the quality of their workshop saws, that would be a motivating factor if I was looking for a safer job site saw. I’ve read some opinions that this is not the case, so I would love more detail. It’s unreasonable to expect that it would be the equal of a more expensive saw, but knowing where they made trade offs and how that effects your usage would be nice to know. Unfortunately, you’ll be comparing 3 job site saws and don’t have this other frame of reference to add.
Stuart
Let’s start small.
I can’t accommodate a large saw right now, even if it was delivered no strings attached by SawStop or a retailer we’be worked with in the past.
But if enough people are really eager for a review of one of the larger saws, I’ll take it into consideration when the dust settles after an upcoming workshop update.
A cabinet saw isn’t exactly a “test and get rid of” type of tool for review. It’s a long term commitment to the tool and table saw-centered woodworking.
Mr.Creek
Have them send the full sized one to me, I will review it, send you pictures, etc. Heck I’ll even buy your plane tickets, so you could review it at my shop (garage).
Daniel Lawson
Im interested in the job site saws with folding stand myself due to size constraints. I have seen a review of the bosch and in it it seemed to be underpowered. I too have little kids and im hoping to purchase one of these at the next woodworking show in NJ.
RKA
I realize you can’t review everything, I was just pointing out how valuable that extra frame of reference could be in the review.
To help you solve that problem, you’re welcome to use mine but you have to help me set up the sub panel in the basement first! 🙂 Without that all you will be able to review is the fence and blade tilt!
BC Turner
In Woodshop News on the 14th, they released an article that a court ruling did in fact rule that Bosch in fact infringes on SawStop patents, and they are asking that Bosch’s saw not to be imported in to the US, as well as parts.
Here is a link to the article:
http://www.woodshopnews.com/news/this-weeks-top-stories/505691-ruling-says-bosch-infringed-on-sawstop-patent/
Mr. Creek
I have been saving up for a table saw, a nice one in the $1500 to $2000 range. Fair disclosure, I have a lot of Dewalt power tools, but I am not brand loyal past a battery platform. I have young kiddos who I would love to teach in my shop, someday. So the flesh detection technology is very appealing in my saw purchase decision. Initially I liked the Bosh in the fact that there is 2 charges and their reaxx does not destroy an $80 blade. But I have read many reviews that the bosh fence is finicky and flimsy, a deal killer for that price range. I understand, saw stop prices are going to be higher as they are not a major brand that can off set cost by massive production runs. I’m okay paying a little more for a made in the USA, to a small company if the quality is there, but on the other hand I get a little nervous buying a major purchase from a smaller company. The reason being if they go under, replacement parts and service become impossible. As I don’t have the funds yet to buy a new table saw, I will eagerly wait for your review.
P.S. call the V.P. back and tell them to put a router insert in every saw, and I would probably let the wife yell at me, as I put a saw stop with router insert on the credit card, tomorrow afternoon.
RAMzTheBoss
Oh man…your proposal of a router insert made me giggle with excitement! This must happen! I can already hear my wife yelling at me, and yet it still seems totally worth it. 🙂
BonPacific
I’m not sure SawStop’s prices are that much higher than the competition, it’s just that they have a very limited portfolio. Their JobSite is cheaper than the Bosch Reaxx, their Pro 3HP model seems to be in the same league/price bracket as a PowerMatic, and the Hybrid model is only a couple hundred more than a comparable PowerMatic Hybrid. They are more expensive than Grizzly or JET, but those are definitely budget brands compared to PM.
This said, I haven’t used them side-by-side, so whether they are actually the same quality as a PowerMatic saw is based on other reviews and hearsay.
Bench Dog an General International make cast iron router table wings that fit the SawStop.
Nathan
I was about to say for the most part I don’t mind the saw stop idea, I don’t mind them trying to protect their patent.
However where I have a little heartache was their attempt to force the industry to use their product and only their product. I don’t so much mind a regulation that makes everyone by date _____ do ________. I work on airplanes that’s life here.
but they had the audacity to try to force all table saws sold by some date in the US be either theirs – or licensed use of their device only. IE a Dewalt saw with Saw stop blade and safety. Since their blades are part of their safety system you have to use their blade – or it would also have to be made under license.
That’s not gonna fly – here or in most countries. there isn’t just one vendor of airbags for example is there? Or only one licensing source for your GFCI outlet in your home. Just to pick 2 items.
I have nothing against them for being defensive – I mean of course you should be. but they should have been a touch more tactful about it .
Why I don’t like their system is a whole other rant about reliance on something to save you. I absolutely hate these autobrake, adaptive cruise, lane keeping crap on cars these days. Yes it might save lives – sure – so would not driving in the first place so how far do you want to go there. We constantly take more and more responsibility away from people in everyday tasks. As such we have more and more people that just don’t try to think about what they do.
I feel this same issue would apply – how long before the first guy that’s only ever used a saw stop uses another saw and cuts his hand off because he took the guard off because he likes to see – and figures it’s only going to nick my hand like the one I learned on in shop class . . . . . .
Just like the kid 8 years from now that learns to drive mom’s whatever superdrive it self car and then gets into a 10 year old hand me down and thinks it’s going to keep him from speeding or plowing through his neighborhood when he hits another kid walking down the street listening to his new airpods on his iphail 15.
I can hear the legal defense now – well I was taught that . . . . . and I’m not responsible because I wasn’t taught that . . . . .
does the saw stop not function if the guard isn’t attached? safety is paramount right – to that end every other manufacturer could implement that sort of system tomorrow – why don’t they.
BonPacific
One minor point, the Sawstop system works with any steel blade. SawStop doesn’t even make a Dado blade, but sells a dado brake cartridge.
Your other point, about safety lulling people to drive/saw irresponsibly. I don’t buy that at all. Do you see people purposefully crashing their cars because they have seatbelts and airbags? Who in their right mind is just going to run their hand into a saw, SawStop or otherwise?
You’re airbags protect you from someone else crashing into your car. Your auto-brake protects you from someone else jumping out of their parking space in-front of you. You’re sawstop blade brake will help if something else in your shop distracts you. It’s not there so you can be lazy, its to protect you from accidents, that you may not have had any ability to prevent.
Also, go into most people’s shops, and I’d bet you that plenty have removed or never installed their blade guards or kickback-pawls. Everyone takes their safety into their own hands. No one blames their 30-year old Delta when they cut off their finger, or get a rib broken by a kickback. This is another safety feature, just like a riving knife.
If you want to remove all the safety measures from your life, so be it, but don’t start proclaiming that safety measures are destroying society.
Gary
Really looking forward your future Sawstop / Bosch comparison. I have a small shop footprint so a job site saw is the only option.
Having nicked my thumb and luckily not losing the finger on my current table saw, I am really looking at those two saws closely.
I was really hoping the Bosch saw would do well in reviews as the Reaxx sounded like it would deliver more for the money and less damage to the blade. Hope you get to put it through some more testing.
Great website and really enjoy your reviews!!!
Chris
Isn’t it a bit harsh to characterize SawStop as trying to “force” the industry to standardize on their technology?
Lobbying is not forcing, it’s a legit offer and petition to consider an idea they put forward. It’s then the government’s role to consider that in the grander scheme and decide whether or not and how to implement it.
I can’t really blame them for trying to market their technology, if it was my company I would as well. They are a for-profit business trading in free markets after all.
That could have ended several ways, the govt could have rejected it outright, or they could have told SawStop to split the technology with several other manufacturers to avoid a monopoly situation, just like what was done with airbags.
The ball would have then been in SawStop’s court to approach other saw manufacturers about a deal whereby they split the market. I see the whole situation as being blown up over the very low likelihood that the government would have gone along with SawStop’s original plan, that’s what people became all caught up about.
SawStop alone cannot force anything on anyone but themselves, they can only make offers and suggestions.
Or am I missing some important detail of this epic story?
BonPacific
They got a law proposed in Illinois in 2005 that included SawStop’s safety device by name. It was more than just lobbying for safety regulations, it was an attempt to force every saw to include SawStop’s specific device, rather than a generic blade brake.
Chris
Right, but that just proves the same point, lobbying can get a law proposed but it still needs to get voted on, which is where bad ideas will be discarded. It’s safe to assume that that law did not pass, which is an example of the system functioning as it should.
If you’re upset that they even tried, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but it seems like this is all flowing in the right direction (more players in the market, prices going down), despite SawStop’s earlier actions.
If this ends up with mandatory saw safety mechanism but one that is reasonably affordable, sourced from multiple manufacturers who are all sharing the burden of R&D to build a better product, isn’t that better for everyone? Would you not choose a safer saw if it was only $100 more then a traditional one? I certainly would.
Bill2
Stuart,
As you said, there are many people who were turned off by the reports of SawStops tactics. I, like you and others, were not willing to support someone, or a company, that tried to force us to use buy their products via regulations. I’m glad that your conversation went well with the SawStop VP but without the details and specifics that you say you can’t reveal, how are we to make our own decision? The details and specifics matter. Did the VP or someone at SawStop require a nondisclosure agreement? I’m not willing to just roll over on this. I am willing to give most people a second chance but I need a good substantive case for that decision.
mizzourob
I agree…details matter here. You were very anti sawstop before and now you flip-flopped without saying why. I’ve seen a number of YouTubers all suspeciously getting a swastika at the same time and only one ever disclosed that they got it for free. Clearly Sawstop has a history of trying to manipulate the market and you need to come clean with details or disclose that a NDA was signed/agreeded to.
Benjamen
Are the youtubers, reviewing the saw or just using the saw in their projects? If they are reviewing the saw and don’t say where they got it from I can maybe see being outraged.
Also there are reviewers that get every tool they review free from a manufacturer and just expect that you know that. Kind of like print magazines, they never tell you that they get all their review units for free.
If on the other hand they just use it in their videos, have you watched every one of their videos? Many of the youtubers I’ve seen that get a Sawstop say Sawstop gave them the saw once, like in a special “Hey I got a Sawstop video,” or at the beginning of a project video. Are they supposed to announce every time they use a tool that it was given to them?
Some other Youtubers I’ve seen don’t talk about their tools in their video, but will talk about getting the saw in other social media outlets.
I’m not saying there aren’t dishonest people out there, just that maybe it’s not always easy to be transparent.
Stuart
It was a combination of things.
As mentioned, we had an open conversation, with the agreement that it would be private.
I could ask for quotables, but I don’t want to. I don’t want to share more, because it shouldn’t matter.
Ignoring everything else, something clicked in my mind, realizing that it was silly for me to be critical of a company for years-ago actions, especially since at the time I only heard one side of the story.
I took a fresh look at the PTI arguments and documents they sent to ToolGuyd at the time, and some of them seem so silly now.
Somewhere recently I read that PTI brands, including every professional power tool brand I can think of, co-developed competing technology a few years ago. So what happened to it?
After looking into the recent lawsuit details, I realized that the situation is far more complex than it seems at the surface.
I speculated that Bosch at least partially developed the Reaxx as a way to reduce lawsuit liability. If Joe the Woodworker or Carl the Contractor are injured on a Bosch saw, and argue that it should have had flesh detection and injury mitigation mechanisms, which have been favored injury lawyer arguments in the past, Bosch could now point to the Reaxx and say that they have an option and that the injured party had the option to buy it.
That could be the reason why some other brands haven’t come out with flesh detection tech of their own. Because if they did, it could potentially suggest that saws without this tech are inherently unsafe.
As far as SawStop and YouTubers, I have no knowledge about that. Maybe SawStop is supplying them with saws at no cost, which should be disclosed somehow.
Heck, I’d love a free SawStop cabinet saw. But as with everything, if it’s something I want and plan to buy for personal use, I would plunk down the cash. I had been considering budgeting for the contractor saw, but a few readers mentioned not liking its quality, and so I’m reconsidering. So maybe it was just the cabinet saw I played around with at the Woodworking Show last year? I don’t remember anymore. I’ve got no plans to buy a cabinet saw anytime soon. Even if somehow an extended use sample were made available, which I doubt would happen since we don’t have a very big YouTube following let alone woodworking-focused project content (yet?), I don’t have the space for one right now, or the electrical requirement to power a full-size saw and dust collector simultaneously.
Besides, my next big purchase will be a Woodpeckers router table. After that, maybe a CNC something. After that, I’ll evaluate my table saw usage for projects and editorial use.
Short term, I’m thinking I’ll build a support table around the best portable table saw that come across my way.
What was my point again? I don’t remember. I’m now trying to figure out if my needs can balance the expense, footprint, and upkeep of a cabinet saw, SawStop or otherwise.
Hmm, it’s something to think about.
It’s difficult to think about when a tool sample should be disclosed or not. My philosophy is “as much as possible,” but there’s another consideration. Is the point of the post/video/photo/coverage/etc to review or discuss the tool? Yes, disclosure. No? then a disclosure might not be needed if it would clutter things up.
If a project video involves 10 tools, and the focus of the coverage is on the project, is the person obligated to discuss the origins of all the tools?
BonPacific
I know April Wilkerson, Matt Vanderlist, David Picciuto, and Jay Bates got their SawStops’s for free, and stated so a few times. Nick Ferry bought his, and I think Jimmy DiResta bought his, but I’m not sure. Matt Cremona just got one, but I don’t think he’s done a video with it yet.
Also, calling the sawstop a swastika is going too far in this discussion.
Stuart
Maybe it was an autocorrect mistake?
MT_Noob
I also assumed it was a typo, overall everyone seems respectful so far even though this is a hot topic.
I know I am trying to keep an open mind and see all the possible viewpoints.
BonPacific
That’s probably a safer assumption than mine.
Stuart
April has a post on Lumberjocks at the time she bought her saw.
Stuart
It was a gentleman’s agreement. They agreed to answer my questions and discuss things frankly, but I would have to consider the conversation private.
But as mentioned, my stance had already softened. Among a number of positive observations, I asked myself the question I shared in the post. What is SawStop doing now?
I’m sorry if you were expecting me to make the case for you to share in my changed feelings about the company. My intent was to share how my impression changed.
You’ve got to make up your own mind, good or bad.
Anton
Looking at the title again after taking all day to read the article and comments, it does seem very uncharacteristic of ToolGuyd. It ozzes with the sensational exaggeration like the clickbait on most other websites. Perhaps “Reconsidering SawStop” would be more in character.
I assume most of your readers are loyal and long term like myself. We appreciate the straightforward information you provide. And I’ve come to appreciate greatly the lack the crappy ads like “new rule in your town you must know” on this website .
Stuart
The title seemed to reflect my thoughts, and then I couldn’t figure out a better way to write it.
I typically strive for to-the-point headlines. This one was no different.
Memories
I don’t have a table saw yet. I keep looking at getting a DeWalt, but then I’d really like the ‘safer’ saws of SS and Reaxx, but then the price comes in. So I wait.
I don’t like that SS sued in this case since it seems that Bosch designed it materially different. And I’d like the competition (and other manufacturers to jump in) to bring the prices down.
Ray S.
Companies are certainly allowed to enforce their patents, but there are examples of companies choosing not to do so to promote safety. Volvo patented the three point seat belt for automobiles but chose not to enforce it so that other manufacturers could freely offer a better safety restraint. Mercedes patented the crumple zone but has also chosen not to enforce the patent to promote safety. Both of these companies were already in the automobile business when they devised these inventions.
From what I’ve been told, Sawstop wasn’t and didn’t want to be in the power tool business. Now that they are, it’s certainly possible their products are comparable in every other way to their competitors outside of the flesh sensing technology. I don’t know for sure as I’m not really in the market; my existing 30 year old saw hasn’t created any wounds yet and there aren’t many benefits for trading this old saw out. But if I were looking for a saw, I’d consider flesh sensing technology to be an important bonus and an even bigger bonus if it didn’t destroy my blade when it fired. I think both companies have something to offer and look forward to having realistic options.
I’m just a hobbyist so I’m not worried about others, especially employees (having none). That certainly figures into my perspective. but I’d much rather do business with a company like Volvo or Mercedes if all other things are equal or close.
Dacan
You make the best point, in the interest of safety of anyone with any brand, the tech should not be fought with ugly legal battles and patents.
Chris
This was exactly the comment I was looking for. It does not sit well with me that a patent lawyer is the one who created the device and then is the one lobbying to have it be mandatory. Volvo and Mercedes knew their ideas would save lives, so they encouraged others to use it.
Stuart
Volvo wasn’t a small start-up when they came up with the 3-point seatbelt tech.
Aidan
Yes, but Volvo trades on their history of safety innovation. If you buy a Volvo, you know you will be getting all of the latest safety features. They leave it down to the consumer to decide whether they want a safe car (and thus buy a Volvo). They don’t force people who want a safe car into buying a Volvo. They also DIDN’T STOP innovating once they had invented the 3 point seatbelt.
Every woodworker knows that SS make quality saws and the finger thing is the icing (& the cherry) on a very nice cake. So why not let the people decide what they want – I’m sure many will choose SS.
BTW: Don’t forget that Volvo WERE also a small start up at one point as well, yet they have managed to build their business up to what it is today. Why can’t SawStop do that without CONSTANTLY resorting to the lawyers? They’ve got some quality products. If they can’t make a successful business from that, then something is wrong. Stifling innovation in the sector for more “safety” saws seems morally wrong to me.
Adabhael
Patents on safety features (like those on life-saving medications) are always fraught: we as a society want to incentivize innovation and development (with the promise of money) but it seems selfish and distasteful to profit unduly by saving others from harm. There are so many sides of the history, the blade-cartridge price model and so on, but I just want to raise a technical point for clarification (and hopefully not controversy!)
I think this responsibility is only in a general sense like “responsibility to shareholders to increase company value” not a specific obligation to do anything related to that patent. The way I understand it, once SawStop has a patent there is no legal requirement to do anything, it is simply permission to have a temporary monopoly on that idea through licensing or whatever. I believe trademarks, on the other hand, must be defended or you loose the trademark (because it ceases to be distinctive). Might be a distinction without difference, but to me suggests the actions in the past were a strategic choice, rather than imposed, and therefore tell me something about the people making the decisions.
Eric
For what it’s worth, I have owned the sawstop jobsite saw for almost a year now and have absolutely loved it. I wanted the protection and decided to buy the product despite whether or not I loved the company itself.
The saw is definitely not on par with contractor/cabinet saws. It is aluminum, not cast iron. This makes it easy to move around and is flat enough that I have never had issue.
The fence is extremely easy to adjust with square, and is nicer than most jobsite fences by far (dewalt’s rack and pinion fence being one of the exceptions).
As an aside, sawstop offers free replacement on their brakes if you send it in and their tests show it was stopped by human flesh, which apparently is easy for them to tell. It takes a few weeks, but it’s money saved.
Aidan
How do they tell? There isn’t that easy a way. Mabbe licking a few teeth of the blade should do it (to leave your DNA on them).
Tom
You say your opinion of SawStop’s legal position has changed, but you don’t really get into the “why” its changed.
I could have stopped reading at the headline and been as equally informed as if I read the whole article (which I did).
Actually, the headline implies forthcoming information.
I appreciate your site and am a daily visitor and supporter and don’t want to sound overly-critical, but, to be blunt, this just came off like a dry hump through a wet tunnel.
Stuart
Their legal position? I read the complaint they made against Bosch.
They claimed that Bosch was infringing upon their patent-protected inventions, but what I found hard to argue against is their claim of damages. They said that they approached retailers, who had declined to carry the SawStop, saying they were instead waiting to stock the Bosch Reaxx instead. It seems to be that any company would have went to court for this.
I’m not interested in being an evangelist.
98% of what changed my mind is described in the post. I see lots of satisfied SawStop customers, I noticed great quality when I examined a saw in person, and I realized that SawStop hasn’t done anything disagreeable in more than just a few years.
You can also thank my disappointment in Bosch’s Reaxx saw for being a main driving force to opening my mind. A couple of readers had requested a comparison, and that’s when everything started mixing together to change my mind.
Chris
This may be stupid question but do all table saws that sawstop make have this technology hence the name sawstop or is this jobsite saw the first with the technology?
Stuart
All SawStop saws feature similar blade brake tech.
Bosch’s Reaxx is the first non-SawStop safety saw.
Tom
Gotcha.
In hindsight, I believe I was probably expecting something else of the article based on the headline and didn’t take it in proper context.
Regardless, I appreciate your coverage of the situation.
Stuart
To be frank, I agree. But I couldn’t think of a better title that was less than 20 words.
I’m open to suggestions.
Nathan
I guess I see the issue from two perspectives. Obviously, safety features and quality are attractive for something like a table saw, but I don’t have thousands of dollars for purchase and install, as you have noted here. Similarly, I would love to have a Festool TS-55 over my current circular saw for better, cleaner, and safer cuts of sheet goods, but it’s hard to justify the extra expense there as well (kids and house take budget priority at this time, as I’m sure you can attest).
Due to the cost of things, I presently have a 1950s-era belt-driven Craftsman table saw that I bought for $70. The saw is overall solid and runs just fine; but it forces me to have to pay attention to what I’m doing and what I plan to do before I make a cut. The fence is pretty bad for ease of use by today’s standards, but it is straight, meaning I just have to measure front and back distance to the saw blade and make sure it is locked in tight.
I think you wrote an article some time ago touching on this sort of topic: before spending excessive amounts of money, it’s good to get experience / a good understanding of what it is you need and why you need it. Having a government agency tell me that I need to pay a premium as the cost of entry to woodworking is wrong. Let me see the benefit for myself and buy the safer item of my own free will.
Maybe someday, I will buy a Sawstop table saw, but only because I see its value and want to.
Koko the Talking Ape
My memory is hazy on this, but I recall reading in Fine Woodworking some years ago that the inventor of the technology was going around to all the major heavy tool manufacturers, like Delta and Shopsmith, to see if they were interested in adopting the technology. Ten years later, none of them have adopted it, and then I see the Sawstop brand appear. I think the fellow decided to enter the market himself and compete with the big guys because nobody was interested. Which, you have to admit, is a much riskier proposition than just selling the device to existing, established companies.
I don’t know if that makes the company a white knight all of a sudden, but it does show chutzpah. They are bringing a genuine advance to the market. I hope they do well.
Pete
As much as i like this website…. from what i read in this article and the last reaxx post it sounds like your complaning about the bosch saw and sawstop swooped in eager to talk and compare, your mind has been persuaded to rethink sawstop by them sending you a saw to test….
Screw you sawstop- NEVER getting a cent from me.
Stuart
I was so disappointed with the Reaxx, more than I conveyed in the first part of the review, that it helped push me to opening my mind about SawStop.
I was so excited about it, and about their being a SawStop competitor, but its faults crushed my enthusiasm.
A few readers requested comparison to SawStop, and I took the first awkward step of contacting them.
I have been so critical of SawStop, and it seems they were quite familiar with ToolGuyd and where they stand with me. They had never reached out, suggesting to me that they might have considered me and ToolGuyd had held a critical stance so firm to where I was immovable.
I had asked for some kind of demo opportunity, but won’t say no to a review sample. That’ll help with any questions that might come up after any testing.
I cannot be persuaded with tool samples. As you should have seen from my Reaxx posts, I tell it as it is, whether it’s a tool I bought, or a $1500 review sample.
firefly
Gass is a smart fellow. He was able to secure a patent, and formed a company that still survive today, with a reasonable line of products. For that I am certain he is a formidable fellow. So it doesn’t surprise me that his own VP genuinely speak about him in a positive light.
But what sawstop was doing is borderline unethical. I really don’t see his concern about people safely. He is concern about his own pocket or he would have given free access to it rather than trying to force his patent down everyone throat. I don’t fault them for trying to protect their patent. But what they were trying to do to the industry as a whole is unforgivable. I hope everyone will remember that and stay away from them.
The Ami
Ooh boy………
Andrew
Maybe this is just idealistic, but I’ve read that saw stops lobbying efforts resulted in the widespread adoption of better safety tech by other table saws. I can now buy a $300 table saw with a riving knife, finger guards, and anti kick back prawls that significantly reduces the risk of injury compared to a 15 year old model.
Maybe that was coming anyway, but if saw stop accelerated the adoption of safety tech on entry level table saws, than I, for one, am thankful.
Pete
Would still be thankfull if there was no longer a $300 table saw? Only a $1,500 starting price point? Thats what would have happened if their lobbying efforts were succesful.
If they truly cared about safety they would have made their tech open sourced. Or even made drop in kits for competing table saws. Now we have a saw stop competitor with a similar design(bosch) and saw stop is now suing them.
– screw you saw stop.
BonPacific
Just a point of contention, the industry group that opposed SawStops original (deplorable) legal efforts was arguing that adding sawstop’s brake would take a $200 saw and make it cost $300. We don’t know exactly what the licensing fees and manufacturing costs would be, but that was their argument.
The SawStop jobsite saw, and the Bosch Reaxx arent targeting a market at scale, they are both niche devices at this point. SawStop in particular is building their reputation on safety and top quality, coming in at the top of the market, rather than taking a race to the bottom. Makita doesn’t make a cheap saw, because that’s not their business, its the same thing here.
The regular jobsite saw market has a breadth of price points. You’ve got Ryobi and Skills at the bottom around $250. Jet in the middle around $700, and Makita topping out the reach at nearly $1000. Not to mention similar and safer tools like the Mafell sliding saw, which costs several thousand dollars
Yes the sawstop and reaxx are more expensive than other saws, but given their place in the market, I don’t think its an unrealistic difference. Should the tech become common, price would necessarily drop.
Andrew
Part of Bosch’s price point undoubtedly is accounting for the legal battle they knew was coming.
SawStop originally tried to work with Ryobi, which, if they had been able scale it, would have cost a few hundred dollars.
Peter
After learning about the PTI/JV technology that is based on rapidly moving the spinning saw blade below the table top, SawStop amended one of their then-pending patent applications to purportedly cover any table saw that retracts the blade rapidly within 14 milliseconds — using any retraction technique after detecting contact. This patent application, which was subsequently allowed by the U.S. Patent Office, is arguably not limited to SawStop’s blade brake technology for retracting the blade, but rather is designed to cover any retraction technique, hindering the development of alternative blade retraction technologies and blocking competing inventors from using their own inventions. There are numerous other examples of SawStop’s manipulating its patent applications after the PTI-JV technology became known.
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/09/15/bosch-responds-sawstop-lawsuit
Ray S.
Thanks for posting that link. It appears to me that SawStop is attempting to create a monopoly for itself and then have the government force all other manufacturers to license their technology. I don’t know what the licensing cost/terms are or if they are even still available, but I’d have to assume the cost is so high that no other manufacturer feels they can afford it and still sell saws. Also from my review of the patent document it seems SawStop claims their patent applies to braking or retraction of any cutting tool.
I’m curious to know what SawStop’s response will be to the lawsuits filed when one of their saws cuts off a finger due to being in bypass mode. For me the amount of thinking I need to do to know whether or not the saw should be armed is greater than the thinking I need to operate another table saw safely.
BonPacific
The bypass mode has to be enabled each time you start the saw, its an extra step when flipping the switch, rather than a permanent switch.
Matt Vanderlist has a good video explaining how this works.
So, if someone tried to sue them for an injury in bypass mode, they would be hard pressed to show that SawStop was at fault.
Chris
These table saw company’s should really be concentrate on making square connections to saw blade and fence better or easier to accomplish. Having a square saw blade and fence takes a lot of risk out of possible injuries especially with existing table saw safety features not including this new blade retraction technology. Give me a square saw blade to fence and I’m happy. I mean how hard can it really be to have a square saw blade and fence. Dewalt’s rack and pinion fence system at least accomplishes the square fence.
BonPacific
This is an excellent point. The cheap table saws in the market are what I’m really afraid off. Using a Skil or Ryobi (american) saw just seems like begging for trouble.
Jim Felt
SawStop was in exactly the same position that Tim Leatherman was decades ago. He had a great home garage built EDC device that he wanted to share with all the existing knife manufacturers in hopes they’d manufacture it and was turned down by them all. SawStop invented a giant leap forward in power tool safety and was turned down by every single equipment manufacturer. Their reasons then (not now it seems) centered in two points. Don’t bring up safety as a sales feature because we’ve avoided this liability issue for decades. And don’t raise the price just for this (and again let’s not talk about true flesh safety) issue.
Tim went on to make his own brand of products aptly named Leatherman. And sued nearly every similar manufacturered product to stop them from knocking off his original design patents. And rather successfully over the decades. SOG and Gerber et al have innovated (and possibly licensed?) around Tim’s genius.
I doesn’t appear to me that this SawStop issue is much different. Just a better time in history (thanks to Al Gore’s (kidding) Internet) for us all to outgas over the SawStop inventor/founders methods or even personality.
And both are privately held Oregon based companies within 20 miles of me. Which is personally pleasing. Carry on.
firefly
Based on what you said, I don’t see the equivalent here. Leatherman didn’t try to legislate anyone to use his tool, Gass did. It would be a major insult to Leatherman to compare the two.
BikerDad
You speak of “what SawStop is doing now.” THAT’S where my concerns are at. Not, mind you, with the legal wrangling.
I want to know what SawStop is doing to insure that I’ll be able to get cartridges in 20+ years. I want to know how they are adapting their tech to other tools, in order to both expand the safety goodness to other tools, and insure the long term viability of the company after their patents expire.
Stuart
I hadn’t asked about future developments, and they would likely not tell me or swear me to secrecy. But they’re trying to defend their interests and thrive as a company.
I can’t speak about 20 years from now, but I’d believe that SawStop will continue to offer the same safety cartridge, or one compatible with current saws, for as long as they’re around.
KL
Clearly PTI is opposed to SawStop’s position, and still their page makes a lot of valid points:
http://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp
Which, exactly, are valid is up to you.
I just learned of all of this, and presently sit back watching feeling as though I have little investment as I don’t own a table saw nor do I intend to.
I find myself wondering what all the buzz is about anyway, power tools are inherently dangerous. Are table saws THAT much more dangerous than any other that we need legislation around it? THEN it occurred to me I should care, what if the debate was about angle grinders, circular saws (wood or metal specific), lathes, mills, ………or how ’bout chipper/shredders or combines????
I understand right now the physical mechanism(s) of at least the SawStop cannot be implemented to at least some of my examples, but alternate methods WILL be invented. But if SawStop is successful in patenting ALL flesh detection OR anything that stops any tool when it senses contact w the human body, that’s unfortunate for the consumer.
I might not mind a similar feature on my lathe or even angle grinder IF AND ONLY IF it worked flawlessly with no false positives. On a (metal) lathe in particular stopping a cut suddenly will likely destroy your work and could trash hours or even days of labor. As it is I hate GFCI in shop environments due to nuisance tripping.
Again. I understand that right now there’s no realistic way to implement something like Gass’ system on something like a lathe. That’s not the point – the point is that his patents could shape the future of safety detections on all sorts of tools, equipment & machinery – making them either unavailable to the consumer or cost-prohibitive to the consumer.
Also –in order for me to personally favor or opt for these safeties– such safety measures would have to be as reliable as vehicle airbags – we wouldn’t tolerate airbags falsely deploying as we’re all driving down the road(s). In the event of nuisance tripping I’ll simply find a way to bypass the safety or use an older tool – I’ve got work to finish and can’t repeatedly placate an overly-protective tool.
Stuart
Yes, table saws are perhaps the most injury-causing tools, with table saw injuries tending to be severe and permanent in a life-altering way.
KL
Really? What organization rates, ranks and lists power tool injuries? More so than angle grinders, chainsaws, lathes, press brakes, commercial saw mills or even circular saws? How ’bout ladders? Even if there were stats (and I know there are) the slippery slope argument is inevitable….once the suits in our Capital have sufficiently legislated table saws they’ll move on to NUMBER TWO on the list, and so on.
I guess I’m just so isolated from the woodworking world that I don’t realize the incredible injury rates of table saws. I must have two dozen close friends who are carpenters and I’ve never heard them talk of it….the few times I’ve been around a table saw it struck me as simply another tool that commanded respect, same as any other.
Stuart
OSHA, CPSC, UL, and NIH all keeps track of these things.
When you go the ER for injuries, what you go in for is reported somewhere.
I’ve seen lots of figures thrown around.
I’m sure there are ladder injury reports too.
Some numbers are speculative, such as the cost of table saw injury treatments. Others are based on harder data, such as the number of injuries.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4154236/ draws upon CPSC story saying more than 30,000 annual injuries.
And a survey from 2007-2008, https://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/108980/statsaws.pdf, 78% of 1,080 surveyed injuries were from a table or bench saw.
Of the injuries, 87.7% were to fingers.
If you look, you’ll find all sorts of data and reports about tool and power tool safety.
Here’s a CDC report about occupational ladder fall injuries in 2011: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6316a2.htm
Jon
I have to greatly disagree and respectfully.
When these guys where trying to get a law passed about table saws being outlawed without their safety features. On top of that with the Schmitt law firm they tried to use the government to force companies to confirm to a standard that is unconstitutional and flat out outrageous. Then they tried to use the legal systematters to create a monopoly by suing anybody who came up withe a flesh detection. So no I will never EVER buy their product and I encourage other not to because these people don’t care about people’s safety ultimately they care about the mighty dollar.
So either you sell out and buy the BS or you realise they are scumbags trying to create a monopoly. Next stop for Saw Stop is DC, next to Obama and the fat cat scumbags alike.
jtr165
I do agree with you in some areas.
Some in this discussion are taking the side of SS’s founder and early employees as ‘just trying to make a living’…The founder was/is a patent attorney. He wasn’t maimed by a table saw, didn’t have kids or family members being hurt by table saws, etc. He knew how the patent system works quite well, and just so happened to have some pretty heavy education in physics, too.
He did come up with better technology, he did come up with an overall safer and more modern saw design…but he went about implementing it in a very cut throat business like way instead of just letting the ‘tech/design speak for itself’.
I don’t think many realize how hard this company tried to make it impossible to buy anything but their own tech. That is a tricky situation from any direction. If they won all this over the past 15 years, how many fingers/hands/arms/etc. would people still have? This is one of those business ethics things that is tough because end users/consumers aren’t necessarily being treated unfairly, they’re just potentially being locked out of unsafe alternatives. Car industries have figured out how to not sell cars without airbags, without ABS, and now without traction control, with prices that don’t destroy the value. Turns out, safety usually pays off, despite a heavy knee-jerk reaction at first. Over time, the same would’ve been true with technology in sawstop’s stuff.
All I mean is…they aggressively sought regulations to make some pretty big tool manufacturers have to pay them to keep making table saws. It’s not like little custom hand built table saws were a major part of the industry. They went after corporations that COULD afford it with very little impact to their overall bottom line (and a bump to retail prices that all of us would’ve gotten over eventually)…
As far as a monopoly, again, that is just early market issues. If their tech became a standard, there would be competition, more reason to develop designs that didn’t destroy the blade, cheaper cartridges, better detection of wet wood vs. ‘us’, etc. All i mean is that they’re not as bad towards consumers as many make it out to be, but they also weren’t exactly some guys looking to stop people from being hurt by power saws…they were looking at how to make a lot of money with proprietary technology that could stop people from being hurt by power saws.
Andrew
This is an excellent, well thought out response.
Charles
I have owned the sawstop contractor’s saw since it came out. And the jobsite saw since it came out.
Both are first class saws. The best I’ve used, excluding the safety feature.
And the safety feature is a no brainer.
Someone else was complaining about the fence. It’s superb. They clearly never used it.
I use these things professionally. I make my carpenters use them. They love them, to their surprise.
Bob C.
I wrote this post last night, after reading the article from July 17th, 2015. I have copied it here, as I think it will get more views and more commentary.
I have a wonderful older (pre riving knife) 3 hp. General 650. Built like a tank and incredibly accurate. It is the one tool in my shop that I thought I would never replace. I’ve been building furniture and cabinetry, shelving and doing custom mill work for the past 25 years. 2 weeks ago, I lost the tips of four fingers and damaged the extensor tendon of my middle finger of my left hand. I was lucky. No question, my fault. No guard, and the board kicked back dragging my hand across the blade. Stupid. I am absolutely to blame for my accident. All my experience and knowledge and for one moment I do something without thinking. I know I’m not alone in occasionally working without a guard in a pre-riving knife saw, and I’m pretty sure that my story won’t do much to change that. Still, no matter how experienced one is, and regardless of whether or not we have the appropriate safety measures fully employed, many of us will eventually do something dumb and just for a few seconds not have our focus where it need be. Even the best guards and safety systems can’t always protect us from ourselves in those few moments we might be distracted at the worst possible time. I may offend a few here, but to think that one’s experience and shop savvy will be protect them 100% of the time borders on arrogant. Even with proper set up accidents can happen because we are human, and we all make mistakes.
I don’t care what kind of man Gass is or isn’t. I suspect he is neither saint or evil money grubbing entrepreneur. I don’t care about patents or lawsuits. I do care about the fact that there is a technology out there that can protect me and others who will not always be entirely 100% focused 100% of the time. I can’t help but think that when people talk about not buying a Sawstop because they hate the inventor or his practices are really denying there own safety over principle. Lose a finger, a thumb….or worse….and then see how you feel about the man.
I doubt seriously Bosch will ever come out with a professional level cabinet saw, so you can probably forget that option. Currently Sawstop is the only game in town. Other companies have the option to either purchase the rights to use the Sawstop system, or develop their own, without infringing on Sawstop’s patents. That’s how it works, and that’s the way it should be. A patent is only as good as ones ability to defend it. If Bosch is using Sawstop’s proprietary tech without permission, then Gass has little choice but to sue to protect his patents, otherwise others will follow and he will be out of business.
Lastly, I’m no fan of corporate ethic. I seriously doubt that in general, consumer satisfaction, safety and convenience is given the weight of consideration that is given to profit margin and maintaining a competitive price point with similar products. That said, at least as far as the cabinet saws are concerned, I have heard and read many positive comments about Sawstop QC and customer service, at a time where quality and customer service seems to have become a thing of the past for many of the storied brands. It’s Gass’s company, and it runs according to his ethic. He may not be a saint, but he certainly deserves kudos for that.
Will I buy a Sawstop? I don’t know, probably not…I might upgrade my saw’s safety features and hopefully, given improved efficiency and functionality of their design over my current set up I will have the discipline to use them consistently. In that I am human, probably not the best choice. I’ve got custom jigs and all sorts of stuff designed specifically for my current saw. To sell my old friend and start afresh with a new saw would be both a hard loss and a major pain in the butt. For that to happen, the Sawstop is going to have to impress the hell out of me. But one thing’s for sure, I’ll be damned if I’d ever let my opinion, or anyone else’s, right or wrong of a company or its owner affect my decision when it comes to my safety and livelihood. That would be lunacy.
Obviously I got my dander up a bit last night, but it seems to me that those people who continue to rant about Sawstop and Gass’s actions, and refuse to even buy a Sawstop for that reason alone, have got their priorities a bit skewed.
But then again, if they had invented it the Sawstop system, I’m sure they would have been happy to give it away for the good of all….so perhaps I just misread the reason for their angst.
Regarding the concept of the Nanny state….there is one issue no one has caught on to, and which is very real. Lots of these so called “nanny regulations” are based on cost analysis. If cars had no airbags or seat belts….well you think health care costs are sky high now? Injuries are expensive…not just to the individuals that who are injured, but also the cost of disability support, lost productivity and added insurance premiums for all. Just ask Charles above how much he has to shell out for disability insurance on his employees. Obviously table saw injuries are a small blip in the overall scheme, but the concept is the same. Advanced safety tech isn’t just about protecting the end user. Like it or not, we may feel it’s our right to decide for ourselves, but the results of our decisions affects us all. Nobody likes to be told what to do, and I get the resentment. But none of us live in a vacuum either. Our responsibility goes beyond ourselves.
I own my injury. I consider myself, and am known as a careful and methodical woodworker. I never thought I’d ever do something as dumb as I did two weeks ago. In retrospect, my injury was inevitable. If I am the only one here that has skipped the inconvenience of reinstalling a saw guard for a quick cut, or who has been occasionally distracted while using the tablesaw, then I guess I should’ve worked behind a desk for a living or taken up stamp collecting as a hobby. Somehow I doubt I’m the only one.
Focusing on all the negatives…all the business and patent issues and general vitriol that surrounds Gass is distraction from what he has achieved. Frankly I don’t give a damn. It’s one hell of an innovation and he’s deserving of praise regardless of what real or perceived motives, positive or negative, people use to define him.
BTW. I apologize for my contribution towards raising y’alls medical insurance premiums. Won’t happen again.
REPLY
firefly
Sorry about your injury. You own up to your own injury. I respect that.
There isn’t any revolutionary about SawStop. It’s simply an additional safety measure that can also be by passed as well. Yes we all make mistake and accident happened to the best of us. There is no perfect system out there that will protect us from everything. With the proper guard, push block the table saw will become a lot safer. A power feeder is also another great option to add to a table saw. Yet many of us still forgo all those system in the name of convenience or cost. Depend on what you do, there are also other system such as a Track Saw that are inherently safer than a table saw. How would you feel if there is mandate that instead of a table saw you must now buy a Track Saw if you want to rip a sheet of plywood? It’s safer right? That’s the whole point. It’s about choice. I applaud Gass for inventing SawStop as an additional safety device. I appreciate having that as an additional option when I go shopping. But I despite him trying to forced that option upon us. If he succeed, that will set up dangerous precedence that certainly isn’t in your or my safely concern.
The SawStop system is an expensive system because it require good amount of part to be installed into a saw. It’s also expensive to operate because for each incident it will also destroy the blade. Imagine you are cutting a wet lumber, and now your blade is destroyed? Try that a few time and I am certain you are a lot likely to try to by pass it. So it’s definitely not a perfect system. Yet Gass tried to pass it as this was a be all end all. If this system become mandated, that mean we, the consumer, are forced to pay the price for it. The table saw is not the only dangerous system in the shop. The additional money that we spend for it could be spend better elsewhere. Everyone shop is different. That’s why it’s important to have choice. It’s great to have Sawstop as a choice. It is a terrible idea to have it as a required safety feature. Gass tried to make it a required feature. So he need to be punish for it because if not it will set dangerous precedent. That’s why I strongly encourage everyone to boycott them.
The option to have sensible choices for our particular need is also a safety measure! Gass tried to take that away from us. So by boycotting him, We are validating our safely concern and principle all in one.
What we really need is to raise safety awareness. I think the best safety measure out there, is the time to stop and think and to be reminded each time we have to work with a potentially dangerous equipment. Back to your accident, would current safety measures such as a guard, riving knife and push block have prevented your accident? Have you thought about adding a power feeder? If not, what other tool could you have use to do the same thing in a safer way? If the answer is no, perhaps this could be a perfect opportunity for you to innovate.
Andrew
Bob,
I am very sorry to hear about your injury.
Thank you for your very transparent contribution to this discussion. As someone who got into woodworking fairly recently, and with no prior experience, I am very grateful for the safety tech that now comes standard on home owner grade DeWalt table saws (because of the push from sawstop). At the time I purchased my saw, sawstop did not have a portable table saw and their full size model didn’t match my intended use nor my budget. If they had offered a smaller table saw, I would have seriously considered it given my own lack of experience and the reality of human error.
RKA
Bob, thank you for sharing and I wish you a speedy recovery. It was posts like this, from veterans, that convinced me it was a good idea to have this additional safety net. The consequence of MY mistake could be life changing and I couldn’t live with that knowing there was an alternative. And it’s not just me that pays the price, it’s everyone around me that is potentially affected in some way.
I have no issues with people making their own educated decisions about whether this feature is valuable to them, but I really wish politics were not part of the discussion. It is what it is I guess. I hope your post can save a few more digits.
I haven’t set mine up yet, but the old saw is gone. I would have kicked myself if something happened while using it and the sawstop was sitting idle because I haven’t run electrical or set up dust collection yet.
Bob C.
Good comments all, and thanks for the healing wishes. I can’t believe how lucky I am. And yeah firefly, I own it. Kind of sheepish about it though. After I got back from the ER. I went down to the shop and reconstructed the accident. I figured a good understanding of what happened, and a large dose of humility (Read personal butt kick) might not be such a bad idea. I found myself actually telling my tablesaw it was not to blame. Not just thinking it, actually saying it. Wouldn’t want inanimate objects to feel guilty after all. I won’t deny I can be a little weird some times, but I gotta give the pain meds most of the credit for that somewhat one sided conversation….
Firefly….I don’t really disagree with you. The fact that I own my mistakes put our personal views a lot closer then they might appear on the surface. I have no patience with those who deny personal responsibility, and I don’t want anyone legislating my decisions and personal choices….at least up to the point where my personal choices do not affect others. If for some reason the Sawstop system was a mandated for all tablesaws, I doubt it would make much of an impact on overall insurance rates etc. But at some levels I feel safety must be mandated. I doubt there are a whole lot of people out there who feel that airbag requirements are an imposition in their lives. Given the large number of single car accidents, they are not there just to protect us from other drivers, but to protect us from ourselves, and our own potentially careless mistakes…Airbags are now required, and their implementation along with other modern car safety features have saved thousands of lives and countless dollars in health care costs. Obviously, a “Sawstop Mandate” would not have the same relative affect. A lot more people drive or are passengers in cars then the number of people who use table saws. The real question is where do we draw the line between taking personal responsibility and the right to make our own choices and when should those choices be mandated for us. At what point are safety mandates acceptable, and by what measure do we use to base that decision? Given the likely extreme difference of opinion on that subject, and because I’d rather keep the peace, I’ll avoid that particular issue. Lets just say that my recent experience has just given me a little differing perspective. If a mandate could save others from a similar experience as mine, then I might be more supportive of the concept then I would have been prior to my accident. It horrifies me knowing that there are people out there who’s lives will be irreversibly changed because they made a simple, very human mistake. Never thought about it much before, but I sure am thinking about it now.
If I had used proper technique, I would not have had my accident. I’m honestly too embarrassed to describe what happened…it was that stupid. Let’s just say the duh factor was off the charts and leave it at that. Firefly, my guess is if I had a riving knife with a guard in place, I might have been OK. If I’d been employing a standard American style pre 2007(?) splitter guard, I doubt it. The fact that I had none of these in place, and did something really stupid beyond just that….Like I said, Duh factor off the charts. The fact that I did it….that with supreme and unerring confidence I would never endanger myself in such a fashion, and yet, unbelievably still did it anyway, is pretty damned scary. I now realize that I am capable of a sudden, impulsive split second lack of judgement that could have caused me both irreparable physical and psychological damage, and that would haunt me and negatively affect my family for the rest of my life. It’s one hell of a sobering slap upside the head.
I totally agree with you, firefly. There is no substitute for using what’s between your ears. Taking a moment to think prior to an operation, training ourselves to focus and be totally aware of what we are doing, knowing how to use, and actually consistently use the safety measures available are essential. And that’s just touching the surface of what we need require of ourselves to work safely.
99.9% of the time I’m there….which is pretty good I guess. Apparently not good enough though.
At the very least, I’m going to invest in a true riving knife upgrade for my saw. General used to offer a conversion kit, and hopefully they still do. It used to be $600 but more recently I think it’s closer to $800 and requires major saw surgery. From an actual parts supplied standpoint it’s a major rip off, and it would be nice to think General would make it a little more financially feasible. But they can get away with it, so they do. I don’t much like the guard that comes with the kit, so add another $180 or so for a Shark guard or more for an overhead system. All that and I’m not sure how confident I am with tearing down the saw and putting it all back together. Not like there’s a qualified General technician around the corner if I do run into trouble either. Though a nice product, the Sharkguard version for the older Splitter 650, with interchangeable riving knives for differing blade depth is nice, but doesn’t provide the always tight to the blade protection that an actual riving knife provides. If I hadn’t had my accident, I might be satisfied with that, but it wouldn’t have protected me in this incidence, so not an option.
Track saws are great, and I’ve considered them before, but not exactly a realistic option for ripping stock on anything remotely close to a production level. Measure, clamp guide, saw, unclamp guide. Repeat. No question firefly…I’d definitely not be happy if a track saw was mandated as my only option for a table saw! I’m sure I’d figure out something though. I’ve always viewed them as sheet good tools only. Likely there’s an abundance of articles and jig designs out there to prove me wrong!
I do have a power feeder which is bolted to my router table and which is priceless both for the safety it provides but also the added convenience. I really dislike hand feeding on a router table, and if doing so, only with pushblocks. Friend of mine lost half a thumb last year getting his hand pulled right into a cove bit. And for those of you who own shapers…You’re braver then me. Sure they can be used safely, but something about a 5″ piece of razor sharp carbide and steel spinning at 12,000 rpm just gives me the willies. Power feeder only zone.
I haven’t considered a power feeder for the table saw. My guess is it would have to be a dedicated set up for ripping. Again, I’m sure it could be worked out, but seems if you wanted to throw a sheet of plywood on your saw, you have to deal with the feeder set up first. Not saying it can’t be done…I’ve just never done it. I’ve also said “can’t be done,” or “too impractical” before, only to be enlightened by far superior minds, so I will spare myself the potential bruised ego. Had enough of that lately.
So OK. Say I got this all worked out. Bought a power feeder… can’t be a wimpy one like on my router table. It might have to rip 8/4 oak, and do it at a rapid and consistent enough rate that the wood doesn’t burn. ( $$$…why do those things cost so much anyway?) I buy a track saw for the sheetgood work. I’m a tool junky so it’s going to be top of the line. Haven’t priced them but it would probably be something like a Festool so I could at least have bragging rights if nothing else. Anyway, a major investment overall. I’m way safer and so I don’t care about, or more accurately, the natural order of things is suddenly turned upside down and my wife doesn’t care about the expense. Or. I could sell my General T-650 52″ left tilt saw (which really hold their value BTW, especially when they’ve been waxed and loved and coddled like mine has) and buy a 3 hp 52″ Sawstop Professional Cabinet Saw, an extra blade cartridge and a dado cartridge. Taxes tags and bribes included I’m out the door, wild guess $500 or so more then if I went with the track saw power feeder option.
I have a shop. It’s not all that large, but my General table Saw has a 5′ deep by 8′ wide flush table on the back of it and a left side extension. Plywood rips are a breeze. No annoying or dangerous balancing acts. Dead accurate and a pleasure to use. Not to mention an awesome work table. So, as great as a track saw might be, I’m pretty sure I’m not going to be all that happy with it relative to my current set up. So instead I buy the Sawstop and not the feeder. Well designed saw, all current with modern safety design and the added benefit of the Sawstop safety system. I now have my convenience and the added safety net just in case the illusive though apparently lurking impulsive and unthinking “Stupid Bob” decides that hand and spinning blade should meet again. Chances are it won’t happen. But I have decided I need to protect myself from lapses of judgement in an inherently high risk profession/ hobby.
My hands are everything. What I build and create is who I am. I love it. Retired, it’s a hobby now…and I have lots of interests outside of woodworking. But if I lost my ability to create in my shop, if I hurt myself because of a simple brief distracted moment that could have been prevented so easily by simply having that last final tier never to use safety net in place, I would be far more then just physically damaged. I would also have to live with knowing that there was an option out there that would have protected me, and I chose to ignore it.
So firefly, I absolutely respect your opinion. I get how you feel and two weeks ago you and I could’ve been quaffing a couple of beers and mutually railing Gass. I probably would have been a bit less harsh in my opinion. But that’s me, and I don’t claim right or wrong. I wouldn’t know patent law from a hole in the ground. I’ve gotten pretty cynical these last few years. Where you see abhorrent I see business as usual. I can’t judge Gass as being anymore than extremely savvy and very protective of his intellectual property…His lawsuits and challenges stand out because they involve something which has meaning to us, but I really don’t think he is much different then most other entrepreneurs who are seriously invested in there ideas. To you it’s disgusting. To “The Donald” he probably looks like he’d be a good choice for attorney general because of his legal and business acumen. To me, I can’t and won’t deny him some level of altruism in his mission. I’ve never met the man, never had a heart to heart conversation with him, seen him kick a dog or give a homeless man the shirt off his back. Andrew references Gass as being a driving force behind the most recent table saw safety standards. If so, then all power to him on that one.
All said and done, in my eyes, the safer table saws can be, the better. If by demanding such standards that you and others feel infringe on your rights to free choice, I’m really not prepared to argue one way or the other about the morality of that beyond trying to give the concept a fair shake without discarding it on immediate principle. If such a mandate might protect someone who is less knowledgable about proper saw safety than you and I, or would protect someone who has the proper knowledge and ethic, but still screwed up because he or she let their guard down for that one second it took to suffer a tragic life changing injury, is losing the right to choose between a safer saw and one that is not as safe really that much of a loss of personal freedom? Is the added expense so huge a burden? For me, the concept is at the very least worthy of consideration.
By the way, my wife came home from work this evening having struck a deer. Looks to have been a pretty big one judging by the damage. Totaled the left front fender, somehow spared the driver side door and then totally wasted the drivers side passenger door. She’s fine, can’t speak for the deer… of course she was driving my car because I drive a stick and that’s been a bit difficult lately.
These life dramas come in threes right? Wonderful.
Y’all be safe.
Sean
A few years ago a bunch of us were going someplace in my GMC Yukon. My friend’s annoying (now) ex-girlfriend, who used to be an engineer at GM, remarked: “I think I designed the airbags for this vehicle.” I turned and looked her dead in the eye and said: “you know what? I never use them.”
Except that wasn’t completely true as they afforded me protection, lowered my risk and lowered my automobile insurance. The late Milton Friedman was a champion of free markets and was against mandated safety devices like seatbelts and airbags. Let the market decide the value. In most instances I completely agree with Mr. Friedman but automobile accidents aren’t a rare occurrence and the injury costs impacts us all. The ubiquity of airbags drives the cost down. Can you buy a passenger car these days without power windows, power locks and air conditioning? It’s cheaper to just throw it in on every vehicle than to make exceptions.
I am required to purchase automobile insurance (one claim in 40+ years of driving) and malpractice insurance (no claims in 20+ years of practice). What coverage do I purchase? The maximum available. My insurance purchases allow me to reduce the risk of my actions but does not cause me to drive or practice with impunity, I’ve only mitigated the risk. I would purchase insurance even if not required.
My father-in-law, a now retired dentist, had always wanted to get into woodworking. He’s probably the most careful, meticulous man I’ve ever met. His fear of losing a finger and thus losing his ability to practice dentistry kept him from this hobby. Certainly my fear of injury has prevented me from woodworking until I learned about the SawStop and Bosche Reaxx technology. To eliminate the risk of a saw cutting off a finger forever for a one time $900 premium? I call that a bargain. After much research I ordered a SawStop this morning. Now I only fear my router, nailguns, circular saw, jig saw et al.
SawStop’s litigation tactics may seem heavy handed (no pun intended) but having failed a licensing, they had been forced down the expensive road of marketing and manufacturing their own products. Now that the public is aware safety options exist, other manufacturers are taking heed. If SS doesn’t vigorously protect their patent, they risk insolvency. Rather than direct your ire at SS, direct it at the manufacturers who have refused to embrace the available safety technology. Should all saws be required to have the SS technology? No. I agree with Mr. Friedman regarding government intrusion. IMHO I’d propose requiring all manufacturers to OFFER a sawbrake technology and let the market decide if they want to pay $XX extra for reduced risk. Like any monopoly, the government would have to set a limit on the exclusivity premium.
BernieV
As a beginner hobbyist in the market for a cabinet table saw, evaluating the added cost of SS versus traditional saws is very important. Enhanced safety appears unquestionable but the question of cost lingers, so of course I did all the research I could. There are a lot of cheaper table saws.
Looking at the history I see much controversy, but after much research have come to some conclusions:
1. The guy tried really hard to license his invention. Not mentioned in posts above is that his fee was to be about 3% of wholesale selling price. On a $3000USD saw that is likely about $90USD – hardly a show stopper. The manufacturer would have to make the parts but if they all were doing it you can be sure they’d invent ways to get that cost down.
2. No manufacturer would license his invention. One reason was likely that to do so would expose their current offerings as less safe than it could be. Law suits etc etc. Of course they don’t want to give any % away to anyone either! If they, as an industry, played hard the upstart would go away and the status quo would be maintained. Or they might end up being able to use the technology for nothing.
3. Crunch time: Fight or flee? Abandon a cushy patent attorney job and start your own saw company to prove a point? That’s a huge and financially risky proposition – takes balls! Or walk away knowing you tried, but seeing your baby washed away like so many others. Or, like some have suggested, donate it to humanity and get nothing back for all your hard work and expense.
4. He chose to fight. Of course they fought back, and continue to fight back. Some people don’t like some of the tactics from either side, but when a startup is fighting for survival it will understandably do whatever is necessary to protect itself, as will an established industry.
5. He had to produce a good saw. Apparently he has done so (except maybe for the pro fence).
6. If you’ve safely used saws for many years the idea that this new feature is worthwhile comes with some difficulty. But then see how many old timers are missing bits off their fingers.
7. Now that safety is being questioned more frequently there has been some minor response by the industry in offering better guards etc. That’s a win all by itself. And nobody wants to see nanny state mandating stuff. (In Europe dado blades are illegal, except maybe for hobbyists).
8. Reluctantly, I am convinced that a SS saw is the way to go, but the cost is annoying. If I don’t, and cut off half my hand, I’ll look like a dumb miser and never forgive myself.
9. I can’t help but feel that if the industry had played along in the beginning, maybe negotiated a better licensing deal for themselves, we’d be enjoying SS technology at a more reasonable incremental cost than having one small company bearing all the risk and cost.
Brad
I really don’t care much about the politics. I bought a SS 3HP cabinet saw two years ago because age-related vision problems brought on the need for reading glasses. I almost cut my fingers off due to unfamiliar parallax issues caused me to mistake distance differences going from corrected areas to uncorrected ones while wearing specs using my old saw. I went out the next day and bought the SawStop, tearfully selling my long-beloved Walker Turner 2241 to make room in the shop. The sturdiness, smoothness, fit, finish and mechanical properties of this new machine are not perfection, but pretty close to it. This machine is effectively flawless for my line of work, which requires lots of precision but mostly one-off cuts. My wife is often perturbed at my shop expenses, but fully supported this saw coming in the shop. I’m a fussy guy who gave up an old friend in this trade. Utterly satisfied I made the right decision. I’ve never looked back. One more thing, I’d NEVER spend my hard-earned money on a Bosch version of this saw. Not because of politics, but because their products are of “low common denominator” quality (OP requires us to be polite and respectful in this thread). Merry Chistmas
Gary Salce
I Would like to talk to the owners of stop saw I recently was working on a Job with one of my close Friends.We have worked together for over 35 years we use table saws every day!!!!!! It was are last day on a job we were finishing up when with in a split second he lost two fingers and badly damaged a third!!!!! Between the both of us we have 80 years experience! It was a BOSCH SAW!!!!!!!!!!!! The Saw Malfuntioned an the Blade reacted very badly witch ended up very bad!!!! I ordered a StopSaw a week latter!!!!!!!!!!!