I recently watched a video where a user cut a block of wood on a SawStop table saw and then reached into the blade to remove the cut piece. This activated the blade brake. Without their SawStop table saw’s flesh detection and active injury mitigation technology, that user surely would have suffered serious injury.
The user in the video demonstrated poor table saw technique and extremely poor judgement, and they were saved from their inexperience and maybe even overconfidence.
Would that user have made the same bad choices on a different table saw? Perhaps. A blade guard would have still been in their way, unless they removed it as they did with the SawStop.
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I watched a different video, where an experienced woodworker shared about their table saw hand and finger injury. At the end of the video, they briefly mentioned that a blade guard or SawStop tech would have helped to prevent the injury, and then they question whether listening to a podcast had distracted them and contributed to their blade contact incident.
Table saws injuries can happen to anyone – beginners, professionals, and seasoned woodworking hobbyists alike. People were suffering table saw injuries before SawStop tech came along, and there are still many table saw injuries today.
Some table saw injuries might result from accidents, mistakes, a one-time lapses in judgment, or inexperience. Some injuries might be preventable, while others can be hard to predict.
I think that everyone would agree that all table saw users should learn and develop safe practices, but this won’t prevent all types of accidents.
Some detractors make the argument that SawStop safety tech creates a safety net that could lower some users’ guard, possibly leading to poor or unsafe practices, some of which can increase the chance of kickback. They argue that SawStop safety tech can lead to complacency, and this can increase the risk of injury.
Others point out that although a SawStop might help to prevent serious blade-contact injuries, it won’t do anything extra to stop kickback-type of incidents and injuries. Kickback is responsible for a lot of table saw accidents and injuries, including some that involve blade contact incidents.
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All of the table saws that I’ve seen in the US market today – SawStop and otherwise – have anti-kickback safety tech, usually in the form of a riving knife and anti-kickback pawls. When used alongside safe table saw practices, these accessories can help to reduce the risk of kickback.
So while SawStop table saws might not go any further in preventing kickback than other brands’ models, it doesn’t do any less.
Does SawStop’s safety tech get in the way of skill-building?
I can understand the anti-SawStop arguments, about how it can make users complacent and potentially less safe, but there are flaws in the logic.
How many times will a user make an avoidable mistake when each brake activation costs $89 per cartridge, plus the cost of a ruined blade?
“It breeds complacency.” Perhaps this might sometimes be true, but couldn’t the same be said about experience?
What’s your take on this?
I don’t think there’s a right or wrong position to take, and am looking to better understand the “complacency” arguments.
Jorn
My take is that I’d rather have this technology in my table saw than to not have it. The cost of the saw is the only issue I have.
Unfortunately, $2000 for a table saw wasn’t in the cards as a homegamer with a ‘used saw’ budget.
It’d be nice to see this technology trickle down into a more affordable range of saws.
Jared
This is basically my view. I wish I had this type of protection. I also wish it was less expensive.
carlos martinez
The mayor issue that I have with SawStop is that they don’t allow anybody to implement any kind of flesh-detection technology. Bosch’s Reaxx were a nice alternative but the SawStop people stopped (pun intended) them in their tracks. Until those patents expire the argument will remain those who can afford their expensive tables against those who can’t.
Derrick
I say screw sawstop..sawtooth… greedy ass people. I hope regulations take the technology and implement it throughout for worker/user safety.
Sawtooth only stopped Bosch in the US. Bosch still implements their tech elsewhere and is available. For a brief time you could buy the saw, just not the replacement parts.
William E.
There all greedy have you seen the price of saws in less than a year they all almost doubled and more for price . A Grizzly saw that I paid $1600 with tax and delivery is noe over $2300 plus tax and delivery. Some of the powermatics and jets jumped more than $1000 to $2000 depending on the model. SawStop went up very little around $100 to less than $200 on most models these prices all happened after 1 January 2022 . So there all greedy I have a SawStop pro job site saw and ya it was more than other job site saws but I’ve used many of the others and overall would still buy the SawStop again. Bet everyone of those companies would have done the same as SawStop if the had the technology first there just pissed off they didn’t come up with it first. All these companies are greedy. Go back and look at Stanley history they ran other tool companies out of business if they didn’t take there buyout offer, Nothings changed except for the actors.
Bill
The heavier the saw, the greater the impact to pricing. Global steel pricing had almost tripled by October of ’21 compared to August of ’20. Freight prices are way up as well.
Of course, now that steel costs have eased a bit I doubt that the manufacturers will immediately roll back their prices…
Matt
Sawstop owner tried to sell the technology originally, he didn’t want to open a manufacturing company… NOBODY wanted to buy it. So he started producing his own saws
Franco Calcagni
Your comment is an oversimplification.
1) Having an idea and wanting to sell it, is admirable, especially when the big MFR’s can often take advantage of the small guy. But in the end, usually they meet somewhere in the middle…and they are all happy.
3) No one wants to buy or an agreement can’t be reached. The “inventor” decides to market the item themselves. Again, admirable and commendable. I do not have the numbers on how often the little guy makes it with their idea, but if it is a viable idea and plan, they should hopefully succeed (probably a low percentage make it).
2) This is the step that irks me and others. Rather than going to market, he lobbied government to pass laws making HIS saw safety feature an absolute necessity, mandatory on all saws being sold going forward. This guy was a patent lawyer and from what I recall, he had connections in the government and pushed hard, and went to court. All to mandate every saw have his safety feature. Had he won, he could have charged just about anything, basically outlandish premium on any saw sold after the law was passed.
Basically a dirt SOB.
Had he gone for step 1 to step 3, like most, I would have probably supported his product. Instead, being the SOB that he was, I always cheered for him to fail. Unfortunately, he was successful and sold the company.
To all those that make an honest living or invent and make money….great. For all the dirty, underhanded, scheming SOB’s, I cheer against you and hope you fail.
Jay J
It must if expired as the new Festool table-saw has the technology .
Stuart
Festool’s parent company now owns SawStop.
https://toolguyd.com/sawstop-to-be-acquired-by-festool-parent-company/
Eric D
I agree 100%. For the amount I use my table saw, I can’t financially justify more than a basic Dewalt saw for ~$400 with a stand. I don’t think my situation is much different than a majority of homeowner users, and our need for the SawStop is arguably greater than an enthusiast/professional who knows the ins and outs of safe table saw use.
Matt the Hoople
I don’t use my saw enough to justify the expense. Of course I would change my time if I were to lose a finger. Hope the patent runs out soon and we see other brands add this for less. In the meantime, since I do use mine infrequently, it’s not a big deal to make sure that I have no distractions during use and place 100% focus on what I’m doing. When the patent is up and the technology adds $200 to the price of a saw, I’ll sell or give my current one away and buy a new one.
Dave S
The argument that the safety tech in a Sawstop will make you less cautious makes as much sense as saying seatbelts and airbags will make you a less attentive driver. Things happen and safety tech is there to fill in the gap between a moment of distraction and an life-changing accident.
Before everyone jumps on Sawstop for defending their patent remember they shopped their tech around to the major saw manufacturers and none of them wanted to spend the time and money to upgrade their saws to make them safer. Sawstop then did all the work to develop their saws and market them. Now people are angry because they want to protect their product? I have a first generation Sawstop ICS and love the saw. Also, I love my fingers.
Franco Calcagni
“they shopped their tech around to the major saw manufacturers and none of them wanted to spend the time and money to upgrade their saws to make them safer”…well, not exactly. Gass was asking for too much is the story I had read back in the day. All the MFR’s would have loved this tech, and from what I remember reading, their were 3 that really pushed hard for an agreement. Gass just wanted too much.
There are inventions everyday and some real good ones. When presented to the right MFR, agreements are usually reached, more often than not (I am talking about the good stuff, products that can make an impact on the market)
Your comment is, as they say, taken out of context.
Ross
There are also inventions everyday where the inventor gets taken advantage of when they shop their product. Someone has every right to ask as much as they want for someone to buy their product. If they ask too much, then they don’t get the sale. If they don’t have the capability to bring it to market themselves then they either fail or lower their price. In this case, they brought it to market themselves.
Franco Calcagni
I agree 100%. I have nothing against this technology, my problem is how he went about it. Like you said, ask too much and you get nothing. But after all the negotiations and failing, he decides to lobby the government to make a law, making his technology mandatory on all saws sold in future.
I don’t know many people that like having the government enforce anything on them or anyone.
The guy was a sore loser who decided to play dirty to get his way. Luckily the government didn’t go for his pitch.
I feel for many inventors that get taken advantage of by the big guys. Had Gass signed a deal with one of the MFR’s and drove a hard deal and won; good for him.
But trying to get the government to force me, you or anyone else to pay what would have been a big premium on any saw you buy, that would really be a big burn.
Anyone saying it is no different than seat belts, airbags, ABS brakes or any other laws the govt brought in, is different. Just about everyone drives a car and most legislation brought in is to save lives, not a finger.
Ron
When I learned Gass was trying to make his patent mandatory for consumer safety, I came to the same conclusion: Greed. Yes some get taken advantage of. Two wrongs don’t make a right. If he cared that much there would be a “reasonable” licensing option.
Personally I don’t give the complacency argument any weight.
bwh
It costs much more, until you have an unplanned hospital visit. The cost differential closes very quickly if you make a mistake on an older saw.
Sal Colon
I don’t understand, Dewalt and Bosch both had a similar technology. Sawstop scared them with litigation and they pulled their saws. The truth is, this technology has existed for decades. As far as I can remember, General Motors used this technology in their 1970’s Cadillacs. It was called the VATS (Vehicle Anti Theft System). It was replaced by the VATS 2 system in the late 80’s. The system works off of a diode that triggers the system when you touch it. You change the resistance when making contact with the metal. Dewalt and Bosch should have called Sawstop’s bluff.
Chris
I bought a Bosch Reaxx saw before the ban … it’s a good saw and a lot of their tech is “better” than SawStop’s. Bosch didn’t pull the saw out of fear — it went to court and a judge ruled in favor of SawStop on a couple of key patents (particularly the capacitative detection portion) and blocked the saw from being sold in the US. The Bosch cartridges were not blocked … and in theory should still be available for purchase in the US if it wasn’t for the pandemic. What I don’t understand is why the saw seems difficult to find outside of the US, where there was no ban.
Marvin L. McConoughey
Life is risky on many fronts, not just tools. Perhaps the increase in overall personal safety per dollar is not convincing in Europe and other places. I choose to invest money in protecting my lungs by spending more money on air filtration, good lighting, and ear defenders rather than SawStop technology. Each person chooses his or her ways to stay safe with limited dollars.
Doug Turner
I was startled by my wife while sawing and cut my thumb resulting in a hospital trip. Sawstop would have prevented this injury. The cut happened on about 3 seconds.
Art
Regardless of what other people think, I am still of the mindset that Sawstop is greed over good. I primarily blame them for the Bosch saw being pulled. I will wait.
Ross
It’s Bosch’s fault for their saw being pulled if they infringed on the patent.
ca
This doesn’t really seem to be true of any developed nation but the USA.
James
Yeah, patent protection is a good thing we have here.
Paul
So true . I am a carpenter of 35 years and this past summer had an accident with my table saw. The blade ripped open my thumb , index finger and middle finger. I didn’t have insurance so I paid for all the health care bills related to that accident out of pocket to the time of $30,000 . Yup , thirty thousand dollars all totaled . So simple mathematics make the purchase price of the saw stop table saw a no brainer ( which I promptly bought when I went back to work after two months of not working in order to heal and go to occupational therapy). So , $ 1,500.00 for the saw stop table saw or $30,000 for medical care and fingers that don’t work as well as they once did ….. the decision is yours.
Bruce Bellows
The extortion practices of your health care system shouldn’t be the driving force in your decision to buy a Saw Stop. the technology should stand on its own merits. In Canada and i think Europe also we wouldn’t incur any out of pocket expenses other than possible lost wages due to a messed up hand healing.
Koko The Talking Ape
Well, there shouldn’t be health care extortion, that’s true. But there is. Or would you rather we pretend there isn’t?
And are you saying that in Canada or Europe, you wouldn’t need a SawStop? The costs for a severed finger aren’t just health care costs. For one thing, you’ve lost a finger.
Jason Nolan
Or Health Insurance
William E.
I agree I made that mistake on a really nice cabinet saw as the blade was winding down when the saw was turned off. Been using tablesaws for 35 + years never had a problem. I was sure I was doing it right that day when I was lucky to only get a 1/8” saw kerf across three of my fingers which was a Trip to the ER and 12 stitches later 2 plus years later still have nerve damaged fingers. I do now have a Sawstop and I’m glad I purchased it . Ya it was more expensive but the ER bill was enough I could have purchased 2 or three new SawStops and that was only the initial cost. I am fortunate enough to have good medical insurance so it wasn’t bad for my out of pocket but in the grand scheme of things it’s those ER VISITS that help drive up the cost of medical insurance for everyone so it does affect us all in some way or another. All the negative against SawStop about greed and price is just back ground noise because there isn’t a company out there that wouldn’t be greedy just like SawStop if they had the technology first. I’m saving my fingers and I’m not rich but I figure besides the medical costs I’d like to keep them attached kind of grown used to them LOL.
All the negative hate I’ve seen in the comments on this topic is causing a lot of stress in some people out there so chill out folks it’s not worth a heart attack, the irony l see in that LOL.
Marvin L. McConoughey
“…unless you have an unplanned hospital visit.” This is the bedrock argument of many insurance and safety device pitches. But the argument is too widely applicable to be a reliable buying guide. We all need more insurance if…. a million potential mishaps occur. It might be a multi-million dollar personal injury lawsuit, a horrendous rare disease most insurance won’t cover, a lightning strike, etc. Few of us can afford all the insurance we might conceivably need for every risk.
Marvin L. McConoughey
We all need more insurance if…. a million potential mishaps occur. It might be a multi-million dollar personal injury lawsuit, a horrendous rare disease most insurance won’t cover, a lightning strike, etc. Few of us can afford all the insurance we might conceivably need for every risk.
Tool Junkie
When the patent idea initially came out, I was pissed at Gauss for trying to force it on consumers via legislation.
However, after gaining age & wisdom, I now own one. I don’t think it makes me “less safe” in my operation. I have two friends that have lost a digit or part thereof, due to a table saw.
As we age, our skills & abilities sometimes decline. That’s why they’re called “accidents “. I can’t tell you how many car crashes I’ve investigated the years by senior citizens that “have never even been pulled over in… “40, 50, 60 years of driving “. But we get older & still want to believe we’re capable.
For those of you that say, “I can’t afford it”. People do that with car insurance. But, sometimes there is a very high price to pay. You can mitigate it by safety a lot, but there are still accidents. It’s it wiry the cost? My buddy, turned to look at what the dog was barking at, after he’d turned off the saw. The spinning down blade still took off his trigger finger. The cost was thousands of dollars in medical bills & a permanent ghost pain. All by a moment of inattention on a $150 job site saw while trimming his house.
I had a Felder, but sold it. I’m keeping the SawStop.
Josh
They obtained a legally monopoly, hurting everyone. The only effective tech cannot be produced by anyone else, meaning the only saws with the tech are thousands of dollars, out of the reach of hundreds of thousands of woodworkers.
Imagine if a car company patented seat belts and it was illegal for all other car companies to produce them. And then that same company spent their enormous resources to lobby the government to force cars to have seatbelts.
What they’ve done is go far beyond the free market into mercantilism. In my view, it’s disgusting. I can’t buy their products in good conscience.
ToolGuyDan
Perhaps you’re aware of this, but a car company (Volvo) DID patent modern seatbelts. They then gave the usage rights away for free to anyone who wanted them, because safety came first. That said, they were able to do this because they already had a profitable business–selling cars. Keeping the the people in those cars alive was a selling point, perhaps, but not exactly their core business model; from a cold-hearted economic view, once the car was off the lot, they got paid whether their customers was in a body bag or not.
There are a lot of things to dislike about SawStop, and I’ll agree with every one of them. That said, the inventor did try to go the licensing route first, and only when that didn’t get any traction did he go with the current strategy. Your argument is valid, but keep in mind how upset you’d be at the incumbents (and thus want to beat them) if you’d offered them fair licensing terms and their response was, “Sure, in an ideal world, we want customers of even our low-end saws to have all their fingers. But once the saw is sold, we get paid whether they have ten fingers or nine.”
Franco Calcagni
I think you are giving Gauss, too much, benefit of the doubt.
From what I recall at the time, all the saw MFR’s would have loved to have the rights.
With ideas that aren’t great or might not sell well, these MFR’s probably play hardball because they don’t know if a given idea will catch on and sell. With the SawStop tech, I think they were all ready to open their wallets; Gauss was the greedy one in this case, and when the MFR’s said it was too much, he tried too have it legislated on all saws.
Michael
I wish I could afford a saw stop. When I was a child my uncle had a table saw without a blade guard, riving knife, anti kickback pawls, paddle switch, etc. We learn to work with these safety features and they’re good. I think its sad that other saw makers haven’t added the safety feature. Its almost criminal when a safety feature exists and companies chose to not include it. I will eventually buy a sawstop, probably when I replace my table saw next time.
I agree though that sometimes we get complacent thinking perhaps that the saw is safer than what it is. Inexperience though is something that is only gained with experience and I would prefer not to gain an experience lesson by cutting off a digit.
SteveS
I absolutely agree, I too would greatly appreciate this added safety feature but currently it’s simply much much too expensive. As an occasional DIY user I have to trade off the probability of serious injury with the cost of replacing my current saw.
Mike Appleby
I think if they were to design a saw stop✋ it should be done in the motor technology such as dynamic breaking etc! While still using the blade guard.
Eric Mullins
I agree wholeheartedly. The safety tech is only for the affluent. Not to mention that most production workshops I’ve been in do not have SawStop Saws. So, not only are hobbyists without a silver spoon in their mouth denied safety so is the man or woman that woodworks for a living. This is all SawStops fault. Bosch had developed a tablesaw that people could afford with similar safety tech. SawStop took Bosch to court over their version of the tech and won. Due to SawStops greed, the people that can not afford their table saw are denied the same safety. Money is more important to SawStop then people working in the industry and hobbyists alike. They don’t care about people keeps their limbs and digits. It’s all about God Money. That’s I will NEVER give SawStop a dime. My shop outfitted with Powermatic machines. Powermatic is a better quality machine from the jump but the cost is comparable to SawStop saws. But Powermatic hasn’t denied safety to the people who use tablesaws. And as far as the rech is concerned if everyone could afford it it should be installed on every machine. But since it’s only for the Elite then people should practice common sense and proper technique when using a tablesaw, whether or not they plan on purchasing/using a SawStop or not. Nothing beats knowing what you are doing and being aware of your surroundings.
Stuart
The Bosch Reaxx was $1500. The older SawStop jobsite saw was $1299 plus shipping, and the newer model launched at $1399 plus $100 shipping. The Bosch Reaxx was NOT any more affordable than the SawStop Jobsite saw.
Jim Felt
Stuart.
Thanks for pointing out these easily proven facts. And no I don’t even use my little Dewalt let alone the cast iron giant at work. Neither with SawStop tech.
Rants are seldom mistaken for reasonable observation.
Chris
True the basic SawStop saw is around $1400, but the standard extensions, fence and miter are flimsy. The available upgraded ones push the price way up. That being said, since a tablesaw is probably the most used tool for a wood worker I think the feeling of quality out lasts the feeling of a bargain every time.
Tsmys
Wrong, wrong, wrong! The only reason SawStop came into existence was because the table saw manufactures refused to pay the cost of adding the SawStop technology to their saws. As for the whole Bosch debacle, the court sided with SawStop because SawStop had the legal right to defend their patent rights just as anyone else would.
Dave
You are correct. Saw stop developed this safety technology and offered this technology to the world. It was the greed of the other manufacturers not willing to pay someone for their idea that started this debate. If you are keen enough to see a problem and develop a solution, you deserve to prosper from it.
Koko The Talking Ape
That’s correct. The SawStop people only entered the tool manufacturing business when nobody agreed to license their technology.
Which to me is curious. Not a single one? Why not? Being a first mover on this would be a pretty big coup. It would give whoever licensed it first a industry exclusive feature, for which they could charge a premium. It might have even created a cachet for the rest of the brand. Oh well.
Franco Calcagni
Exactly….your reasons for being the exclusive company to have one are all excellent points.
He probably gave the companies all the reasons you gave and more. And while saying it believed his licensing should get so much more, to the point that none of the companies were willing to pay, despite that it would have been coup to have the licensing.
The dude was a pig!
PawpawStew
Personally, I’m tired of the argument that somehow SawStop saws are “unaffordable” or only for the “rich” or “elite”. For all that is right and holy, people, QUIT WHINING LIKE A CHILD! Good grief. Neither the world nor SawStop owes you a danged thing. Here’s a concept… learn something called DELAYED Gratification! Sock away a few bucks into an envelope every paycheck until you’ve saved enough to get one, then buy it! If you barely make ends meet, go get a second job or another job that pays more so you can afford the things you want!
David
Okay, all you folks out there that makes a living or supplements your income and need a table saw, quit using one until you can buy the really expensive one that has a patten on the safety feature.
Sorry Pawpaw. You’re entitled to your opinion but for some of us it’s not instant gratification, it’s earning a living.
Travis Honaker
Or use the one you have while saving for one. It’s not all or nothing. I mean, pull your pants up and move on man.
Travis Honaker
I agree PawPaw. That’s what I did. Saved a bit here and there. Side jobs, etc. Until I could buy what I want. By the way, you’ll know me as tk23606 from the Playground.
David
Second that
Charles
I have used table saws for over fifty years now, and taught woodworking for thirty years. I never had the luxury of having the Saw Stop, but had nice Delta/Rockwell, Powermatic, or even Craftsman table saws. I taught the safety rules, tested over them, demonstrated several kickbacks to everyone in each class. During the thirty years two students got 3-4 stitches but nothing cut off. I could always tell by the sound there was something going on, but even then seldom could you get it stopped.
The argument for spending the extra money would be well worth it if you have employees that are not well versed and experienced. I personally use an old Craftsman 12”, a Powermatic 50”to the right and a Shop Fox sliding table saw. All are safe if you do things like you should. I believe in push sticks, blade heights, firm holds, all attention on your saw while the blade is turning, and using clearance blocks or allowing for clearance. I don’t use any guards but don’t allow anyone to use them either. Binding and improper use of the saw is most dangerous for those who don’t understand or follow the rules to be safe. Working by myself I don’t see the need for the Saw Stop, but if I had employed workers I might replace the old saw for them to use one
Marvin L. McConoughey
Concur. When SawStop’s patents run out, these or comparable safety measures will become affordable and perhaps superior. For now, where are the statistics on SawStop failures? It is rare indeed that electronic/mechanical devices have zero failures.
Joe Merchant
The reason I didn’t have a StopSaw when I cut my thumb 10 years ago was more about the space required for the StopSaw than the cost. The cheap lightweight table saw just fit in my garage better, and the $1000 savings didn’t hurt… Until I cut my thumb tip off and ended up with $5000 out of pocket medical expenses. Still, I stayed with the lightweight cheap table saw until two years ago when I started doing more serious table saw work. Now I have and use the StopSaw portable model. It is a bigger, heavier, better saw, and the safety factor doesn’t hurt.
Geoff
I priced a new Saw Stop that I want to get. It’s $4700.
Fred
Festool is manufacturing a saw with this technology
Stuart
Festool’s parent company owns SawStop.
https://toolguyd.com/sawstop-to-be-acquired-by-festool-parent-company/
https://toolguyd.com/festool-sawstop-equipped-table-saw/
https://toolguyd.com/festool-sawstop-equipped-table-saw-updates-2019/
MM
I think this is something that differs from person to person. For example, when I read “Some detractors make the argument that SawStop safety tech creates a safety net that could lower some users’ guard, possibly leading to poor or unsafe practices” that came across as shocking to me. I can’t imagine acting sloppy around a Sawstop saw trusting that the technology can save me. I know that Sawstop works, but I see it as something that may diminish the severity of an accident, not something I trust 100% to prevent any injury at all. The idea that someone might act unsafe around a saw just because it’s a Sawstop just doesn’t compute in my head. But now that issue has been raised, sure, I think there must be some people like that out there.
And then again, I share “those people”s views of a lot of newer “safe driving technology” like lane-change accident avoidance, automatic following distance braking, etc. In my opinion those technologies coddle drivers and separate them from the active task of driving, leading to greater opportunity for distraction.
Hoser
You must not know many people. This is the attitude of many if not the vast majority of people today. Everybody expects that they can do and act however they want and something will protect them. There’s no accountability. I have seen first hand people doing this. The first experience that comes to mind is watching a tile guy cut tile with an angle grinder throwing the chips directly into his eyes. He then cursed the tool and everybody around and threw a fit because he had tile chips in his eyes and was in great pain. He took no effort to use the tool properly or put on any PPE, he just expected to use the tool however he wanted to, and not suffer any consequences. I see it all the time.
Ross
But wouldn’t that PPE make someone complacent about practicing safe work techniques?
johnf
I was injured more often pruning my cactus wearing boots, jeans, and gloves than when I started to do it in shorts, sandals, and a t-shirt. The explanation I had was I was far more careful and tended to watch where I stepped and didn’t use my hands to grab things. So there is some real world examples of how safety equipment can make people complacent.
But cactus are not table saws and the risk of serious injury when not using safety gear was much less than when using a table saw, just scrapes and punctures instead of shredded fingers. But I routinely use a table saw without blade guards or riving knives because I have a garage sale saw that didn’t come with them. Along with an old crosscut saw without a blade guard that I accurately refer to as my ‘saw of death’. It’s not ideal, but as others point out, I could either not have these safety items and be very, very, careful (no music or podcasts in my shop), or stop using then until I have the money to replace them out find replacements. For now, I’ll just be very, very careful and keep my medical insurance current. It’s not ideal, but it’s my choice to accept the risks.
Joe Merchant
In many ways, I feel that the StopSaw reminds me of the serious nature of the tool more than a simple table saw does.
Ron Neal
I have been using table saws for about 45 years. I have owned Craftsman and Powermatic. My Craftsman saw died last year working on a mahogany project. My wife insisted I spend the extra money to get the Sawstop. I pinched pennies and bought the cabinet saw. Great decision! A friend recently had a mishap on his saw and removed most of 3 fingertips. Cost of medical care and time factored makes a Sawstop a bargain! Still basic safety practices are essential in use and training. I agree as I get older some of my attention and skills deteriorate so its worth the cost if the safety net.
I suggest forgoing your SB latte everyday and save for a Sawstop!
Rog
I think its great and wish they’d license the tech to other brands. I’d rather have it than not
Mat
Apparently the inventor of the technology tried to license it. Nobody wanted it. That’s when he started the company to make the saws. Recently Sawstop was purchased by the parent company of Festool (and Festool even offers a saw with the tech outside of the US).
David Zeller
Weren’t his licensing terms unreasonable or something, and then he tried to make it mandatory that the tech be on all saws? I’m sure someone here knows the actual details. If I recall, he didn’t come out a hero.
Stuart
There’s a lot of hearsay in the matter. Here’s the US CPSC’s briefing package from 2019: https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/Table%20Saw%20Update%202019.pdf
There’s also a proposed rules document from 2011 which better details earlier discussions going back to 2003: https://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/103269/tablesawANPR.pdf
Dcl
Yes, and I met Gass at a woodworking show. He is a class A asshole to say the least. I’d rather cut my fingers off than give him $2000. Someone asked him if they would be making a cartridge system like Bosch that didn’t destroy the blade. He yelled at them for almost a minute and stormed off, apparently offended that someone thought Bosch did it better. Anyway he didn’t want to just license his invention, he wanted almost complete control over the products that would use said license. Of course no company would agree to that.
Michael
I wish I could afford a saw stop. When I was a child my uncle had a table saw without a blade guard, riving knife, anti kickback pawls, paddle switch, etc. We learn to work with these safety features and they’re good. I think its sad that other saw makers haven’t added the safety feature. Its almost criminal when a safety feature exists and companies chose to not include it. I will eventually buy a sawstop, probably when I replace my table saw next time.
I agree though that sometimes we get complacent thinking perhaps that the saw is safer than what it is. Inexperience though is something that is only gained with experience and I would prefer not to gain an experience lesson by cutting off a digit.
Franco Calcagni
All I know…like you said, the guy was a complete A**hole. I don’t know what his demands were but they were quite lofty because I remember hearing 3 or 4 companies were very serious about getting the rights to the system; but Gass wasn’t reasonable , thinking the one of the big names would cave.
Then when they didn’t, (he being a patent attorney and well connected) he started lobbying governments to make his safety system mandatory on all saws.
When this failed, he started his own company.
I like innovation and admire people who bring new and innovative products to market. And yes, there are many stories of the small guy getting ripped off by the big guys (like the Bionic wrench and Sears, one of dozens of examples), but Gass was an A-hole. He probably couldn’t care less how many people cut their fingers or were saved, he just cared about himself and his money.
Marvin L. McConoughey
I don’t think that “nobody wanted” the technology. Cost to license was a sticking point. Also, the technology may be very reliable, but I have seen no statistics from SawStop on its failure rates. It is rare that electronic devices are perfectly reliable in any field. It is not just greater safety through SawStop, or nothing. We have a large array of safety measures from which to choose and to spend our limited resources on: Better lighting, better shop air filtration, safety push sticks, JessSem hold-down rollers, and newer saws that include other improvements we may not have now, such as riving knives, etc. I have been lightly injured on my old table saws. Always from nicking my hand on the blade while changing it. I now have a Delta with an extra wide slot in which to reach for the blade.
Mike
I wish the Bosch system would have been allowed to exist. It was reset-able, and didn’t sacrifice the blade
David A
Agreed! Cost is such a huge factor for most people and I think many advocates of the SS system overlook the cost of blades and cartridges. Of course the cost of an injury far outweighs the cost of a new blade and cartridge, however there are enough stories of the system triggering due to wet wood, embedded nails, system errors, and other reasons to make me hesitate. If the Bosch system is just as effective but doesn’t cost ~$300 every time it trips that would remove a huge barrier for lots of people.
Alex
After a couple years of having a sawstop, my brother finally set it off. This was almost a year ago and I put the Forrest blade embedded in the cartridge aside. Couple weeks ago I was cleaning up and was going to get rid of it but decided to try pulling the cartridge off to see what the blade looks like. Shockingly, it came off pretty easily and the only damage was a single bent tooth. I sent it to a sharpener and I haven’t heard the prognosis yet, but Im very hopeful it’s actually still usable. Of course this won’t be the case every time, but I think it’s not a guarantee that the blade is ruined when you set off a sawstop. I think if you have other people using your saw, it’s worth every penny. Injuring myself is one thing but someone else getting injured using my tools is way worse.
Michael
Hmmmm, not sure I would want to use the blade after. From what I’ve seen, its a pretty violent event. Seeing a bend and fixing it is one thing. Not seeing a stress frature that causes the blade to come apart at 5600 rpms is another! I wear safety glasses, but Im pretty sure those glasses aren’t going to protect me against a blade that flys apart. To be fair, I guess you don’t know that any blade is safe, but why would your risk it in this situation? Losing a fingerbis one thing, losing an eye or worse is another!
Rob Spanos
Happened to me once as well and also with a Forrest. Sent it back to Forrest for a sharpening and evaluation. They ended up re-braising a tooth but after that they gave it the factory stamp of approval.
Kent Skinner
On the other hand, there are a lot of rumors about SawStop that aren’t true.
Unless you’re running a blade that costs over $200, it doesn’t cost $300 to trip the system. Replacement cartridges are $75ish, and last time I checked, SawStop would send you a free replacement if it was triggered by flesh.
I buy good blades, and am confident enough in my blade sharpening company to send a SawStop trigger blade to them from rehab.
I have a vintage Unisaw, and don’t really care much about SawStop.
David A.
You got me on the math- with an expensive blade you’re out ~$200 not ~$300, my bad on the sloppy math. The point about the advantages of the Bosch version is still true.
Matt the Hoople
I think he’s saying a $75 brake cartridge plus a $200 blade plus shipping/taxes/gas = $300. If using a $30 Diablo blade, the cost is a little over $100.
Joe Merchant
I have a SawStop now, and compared to the cost of an injury, a $100 cartridge plus blade is trivial. Just like I planned to never cut off a finger on my cheap table saw, I plan to never fire the SawStop cartridge. If I ever fail in these plans, I surely will take some time out to reflect on the error of my ways. Reaching for a reset switch and carrying on doesn’t seem to be an appropriate response to a “saw use error” of that magnitude.
DD
Don’t want to let my guard down with ANY woodworking tool. Having said this I wish it was an industry standard and thus help lower the price.
Mat
I have a 3HP PCS. It’s more than a little ridiculous, but I do take more care with my cuts now than my old saw precisely because I don’t want to be out a brake and blade. The thing people don’t talk about enough is that on the PCS and ICS saws the Sawstop tech doesn’t really cost anything in that comparable quality saws (eg Powermatic) cost about the same.
Matt F
If you are in the market for a new contractor or cabinet saw, a SawStop really is not too much more expensive.
I bought my SawStop used and only see 1-3 available in any given year. It was the least discounted used tool I have ever bought, but I had watched the market long enough that it was still a “good” deal.
The $1500 leap to get the SawStop jobsite saw is really the big hurdle that exists compared to any other jobsite saw.
I don’t believe there is any evidence that the SawStop causes complacency or interferes with “skill building” in anyway.
Michael F
I’m a software engineer by trade. I say never, ever allow yourself to trust technology when bodily harm is on the line. My F150 has reverse parking sensors. One day, in a gas station parking lot, a moving truck was trying to aggressively turn around and I was in the way. They weren’t slowing down, so I threw it into reverse and started backing up. My reverse parking assist always beeps if I’m about to hit something. I’m sure you can guess what happened: I crunched one of the hoops guarding the pumps with my rear quarter panel with not so much as one beep. The system failed me completely when I needed it most.
Don’t let Saw Stop do the same when it’s your fingers on the line.
Hoser
This comment wins. Exactly why I got my new truck without ANY additional safety tech, no park sensors, no lane departure, nothing, and it is much better and makes me more aware than my last truck.
Ben
I think you read the comment and came to the wrong conclusion.
The argument isn’t to ‘not have the tech’, it’s to ‘never trust the tech’. That means have it as a warning, but don’t get reckless just because it exists.
Do you wear a seatbelt in your car? Or does wearing it just make you drive like a loon?
It’s good to have safety devices, but we shouldn’t rely on them to be 100% effective. Belt and suspenders is the approach.
Jim Felt
Yes! For me the more vehicular “safety” tech the better. 360 degree cameras/10+ airbags/sensors/bells&whistles. And I still look around like a true paranoid.
I just want all the assistance I can get. Why trust my/our luck when the assist is available?
And certainly applies to heavy torque power tools as well.
Joe Merchant
Try a backup camera, it makes a positive difference in ways that no amount of awareness or skill can match.
TonyT
As a software developer in industrial automation, I concur 100% – I don’t trust software! I’m also glad that our machines aren’t very dangerous, unlike a big press.
Note that the semiconductor industry thinks the same way – SEMI S2 requires a hardwired EMO power off button – no software allowed, not even a safety PLC.
David
Yes, technology, a wonderful thing. No one can argue that enhanced safety features are good. I think the biggest hurdle is the cost. I used a Ryobi 10” contractor’s TS for about 10 years. Worked great, I was always carful. One day while cutting a dado in a piece of red oak, the blade caught and threw the 3 foot long, 2 pound chunk back past my head and put a Hugh dent into my garage door. Man, wish I would have had a $2500 sawstop instead of that $200 POS! Oh, wait, guess it wouldn’t have helped. You can’t engineer out stupid. I did get rid of the saw eventually and splurged with an accident ridden Dewalt that I picked up for $400. I was lucky and now use a pair of $45 push/gripper pads instead of push sticks for dados. Yes, bring the price down so normal humans can afford it and I’d probably buy it. Part of Festool huh, didn’t know that but it figures.
Joe Merchant
I had a $120 POS Makita table saw for 10 years before I got my StopSaw. The StopSaw cartridge has never fired, but I feel much safer and more confident using the StopSaw even if it didn’t have the stop cartridge, it’s just a better (and much heavier and larger and more powerful and expensive) table saw. When I moved up to the better table saw, it just didn’t make sense to me to not get the one with the safety feature too.
Gordon
My Volvo has the backup sensors too. It’s not sensitive enough to catch a person walking behind me in a parking lot.
But it pickups the ground as I back in or out of my driveway and go up a slight incline.
BB
I’m in the camp that you shouldn’t rely on safety systems, but that’s not the same as not wanting them to exist.
Sure, those parking sensors failed you, but they’re only meant to be a backup to the driver’s eyes. It’s the driver’s eyes that were the primary fail point there.
I have a Sawstop. I still use proper technique. I treat it like any other table saw, which is to say I pretend it doesn’t have the flesh sensor. But I like having it there on the off chance that I screw up. It’s nice to up the odds that I won’t amputate my finger, but it doesn’t mean I don’t still use push blocks, etc just because I think I can’t be hurt.
Another interest of mine is aviation. There are all sorts of safety systems in airplanes, but pilots are expected to be able to fly the plane without them. Safety systems are absolutely necessary, but should not by mentally categorized such that they themselves become a single point of failure.
Plain grainy
The Sawstop job site saw passes $2000.00, but comes with a rolling stand. Stands aren’t cheap, even miter saw stands are in the $400( some models). Safety is a major priority, and my tool purchases usually reflect that. You never know when someone suffers a medical emergency, they happen to sneeze, get distracted,. It’s nice to know the safety may help. I know some older carpenters that would scoff at these safety features. They worked their entire career with no blade guard on their table saw. My opinion is i welcome any plausible safety items.
Plain grainy
I also sing the praises of my Dewalt Flexvolt joist/ stud drill. That E-clutch has made my drilling much safer.
Plain grainy
Acme has the Sawstop Job site Pro at $1499.00, my $2000.00 quote was off base. Considering the built in rolling stand, the actual saw price has a lot of value in features. $100 shipping added on to that $1499.00 quote.
Joe Merchant
It was around 2019 when I got my SawStop jobsite shipped from across country (was out of stock locally) for what amounted to $1399 + tax. Local would have paid sales tax and truck freight cost just about the same as sales tax would have.
David Zeller
I have some disabilities from Lyme disease that affect my motor skills. I’ve wanted a SawStop for several years, but the same disabilities have me permanently out of work (the effects were much broader and greater than motor skills), so the cost is hard to prioritize. Rather than go riskier, for me, I simply have not invested in a saw.
I do wish all the relevant patents would hurt up and expire. I know that SawStop saws are otherwise fine saws, so perhaps with competition, they will lower prices or similar quality saws will add the feature at more competitive prices.
Jared
I consider myself careful around my tablesaw. A few years ago however, I still had a moment of inattention that nearly cost me a thumb. It really drove home the need to treat a tablesaw like a live cobra. Leave the guards in place if at all possible and don’t get your paws anywhere near the part that bites.
Like MM, I also can’t imagine trusting the tech so much that I stopped worrying about that spinning blade. I don’t own a SawStop saw, so I can’t say for sure, but I imagine I would treat it as any other tablesaw – and hope that if I messed up somehow, I could keep my digits.
That argument sounds like “I’m actually a better driver when I’m drunk because I pay more attention.”
Joe Merchant
I couldn’t imagine forgetting about the spinning blade either, until that one evening after work, tired, sun was going down, foggy goggles, kids were irritating me by going out the new porch windows through the screens, decided I would cut sticks to fit in the window tracks so they wouldn’t open, needed 10 sticks cut before dark, was on the third try to get the thickness right when I pushed though past the blade on my $120 POS lightweight portable table saw. Only just barely nicked the tip of my thumb bone, but that was good for two surgeries, 6 weeks of rehab, 3 weeks of antibiotic IVs for osteomyelitis, and $5k out of pocket.
Brandon
I’ve been using Sawstop Saws for nearly a decade in the woodshop classes I teach. The safety features are nice to have in a classroom/woodshop environment but I can see where some people would get complacent with that aspect and think that other saws are like this.
My saws were some of the first ones the company made and still operate/adjust decently given all the abuse they suffer from being in a high school woodshop environment so they are a decently made machine and I could consider the smaller cabinet saw if the need arose.
With that being said, if one were to buy one for their shop, please have a line filter/surge suppressor installed on the machine. My school experienced a voltage spike a few years ago that took out both my Sawstops and every other machine with a digital control/interface on it. This was not a cheap fix and caused the cartridge to fire off on a few occasions while I was operating it properly before they completely dies . Second, always have an extra cartridge and blades on hand. Third, keep the cabinet dust collecting system operating and check the hoses often. Lastly, know that cutting treated lumber can and will set off the cartridge; the maintenance crew/other teachers at my school knew none of this and set off BOTH of my sawstops which I discovered as I walked into my shop one Monday morning.
Jason Peacock
It’s like seat belts and air bags. Having safety features in my car doesn’t lead to me driving poorly, knowing that I’ll survive and likely “walk it off”.
Personally, I’m paranoid around all power tools, and having the SawStop safety features is how I ensure that when I do eventually make a mistake I don’t have to pay for it with fingers.
If I never trigger the blade step I’ll still be glad I had it.
William Adams
But it’s different in that when Volvo developed the 3-point seat belt, they offered the patent freely:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/douglasbell/2019/08/13/60-years-of-seatbelts-volvos-great-gift-to-the-world/
Sawstop on the other hand, is trying to make this technology mandatory, w/o reducing what they charge for it, and are actively blocking other companies from developing similar technology.
All of this wouldn’t be an issue if any saw injury lawsuits were required to use as a jury 12 current or former high school wood shop teachers.
Jim Felt
You might also recall GM and most of their US based competitors initially ignored Volvo’s offer. They were afraid of being sued for not actually developing the idea themselves. Just like what happened in the US when ABS came along. They all lawyered up. Until almost literally forced to join the future kicking and screaming
One reason the Japanese and in time others clobbered them in the US marketplace. Two of the once Big Three Automakers have been through bankruptcies and takeovers in part for their boneheaded and insular view of the future.
The future is unforgiving…
Just imagine what the race for more efficient EV batteries will mean for power tools!!!
Troy H.
The whole “safety feature makes things less safe” is almost universally a bad take made by people who are bad at logic or are arguing in bad faith.
Saw with no safety feature – Some are careful and don’t get hurt, some are not careful and do get hurt.
Saw with safety feature – Some are careful and don’t get hurt, some are not careful and don’t get hurt.
It’s an oversimplification, but that’s a win 100% of the time.
Brian
This tech definitely has my attention each time I hear about it or see videos. I’ll admit, my view is from the medical prospective rather than someone working in the trades. I’ve seen far too many hand/finger injuries even in life long wood workers. I get the saws are expensive up front. In the end, I’m sure the cost of the cartridge pays for itself if it prevented a finger amputation or major hand injury.
It will be interesting to see if this ever becomes more mainstream. From a DYI/Homeowner perspective anti kickback in drills is another interesting safety feature in power tools but I’ll admit saw safety seems to have a bigger benefit in protecting users.
NIC D GILBERT
right before covid i had a dewalt contractor saw as my main tablesaw, had a kickback incident and sent 2 fingers through the blade. Luckily just cosmetic injuries – but for months after whenever i even looked at the saw i got anxious.
upgraded to the sawstop (110v cabinet saw), anxiety went away and i upgraded considerably. its a MUCH nicer saw, spins up faster, spins down faster much more stable, overall a nicer experience.
I got it because of the tech i’ll admit, but for that kind of investment why not? hopefully i’ll never need it but it sure doesn’t hurt having it there.
Tim
I like the tech.
I used to think I didn’t like the way the original owners went about trying to make their in house tech mandatory.
I think now he was headed down the right avenue to protect his own interests which he deserves and get the tech out there.
Now they’re still the only ones with the tech, it’s still prohibitively expensive and Festool ownership doesn’t help.
When the patents all run out hopefully there can be some competition in this market but that guy does deserve to get paid for his innovation in the short term.
Rock Hound
We have our first child in production, and I am sure that they will grow up in the shop with me. Please give me all of the safety features.
Hoser
I don’t have children, and I don’t plan on producing any. But I’ve trained young ones. And that’s what it’s all about. Training. Instead of locking the knife drawer, you explain what a knife can do. Pinch the child, when they say that hurts, tell them the knife will hurt much more and for a very long time, and they could possibly die. Then train them how to use the knife properly and help them to appreciate that when used properly, with full attention, it can be a useful and safe tool. Yes mistakes can happen, but they can also be minimized.
Jared
“Pinch the child”…. 🤣
You know, this reminds me that there’s an antiquated theory of moral behavior (we’re talking a few hundred years ago when public executions were normal) which suggested people remember things best if associated with pain. So you might take a kid to watch someone hang, then bring them home and beat them to drive home that breaking the law was a bad idea. I’m skipping over details, but I couldn’t make this stuff up.
Anyway, not sure I’ll be using this approach to teach my kid shop safety. 😄
Also, kids be kids. Sometimes they aren’t paying attention, get goofy or just want to experiment. You certainly need to discourage that in a shop setting and supervise carefully to make sure they follow the rules – but I wouldn’t turn up my nose at extra safety features just because I shouldn’t need them.
Anson
1936 was the last public execution in the USA.
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2016/01/last-public-execution-united-states/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainey_Bethea
Children were in attendance, there are pictures and newspaper documentation.
Things get worse if you approach or go beyond the turn the 19th/20th century. There are documented cases where they forced boys to watch their fathers be executed. In the aftermath of the Dakota Indian war they executed those who refused to stop wearing native clothing. Not even 150 years ago.
https://www.usdakotawar.org/history/aftermath
In lighter notes.
We’ve done examples with our nieces/nephews showing how hot a blow torch is by putting the stove on warm and showing how fast butter melts versus with the torch.
Alex Peel
I do have children. I have an old delta cabinet saw. I plan on training them when the are the right age, and then I plan on training them again, and again.
That as it is I can tell you they will not be touching the table saw until its replaced with a Saw Stop. Mistakes can be minimized as you say and this is a huge minimization.
ToolGuyDan
How far does this attitude go? Unlocked knife drawers… around infants? Unlocked guns… with the kids’ sleepover guests in the home? Should I place a large spike in the middle of the steering wheel, to ensure my kid is paying full attention when driving?
This is a tradeoff situation. SawStop means that, *if* my kid’s attention wanders, they’ll *probably* not lose a digit (or worse) as a result. Unless the safety complacency you’re worried about makes “if” so much more likely that it outweighs the “probably”, then it’s still a good tradeoff. And, empirically, a one of these things going off gives very nearly as good a lesson as a trip to the hospital does. I can’t find anybody in this thread saying they’ve forgotten even a single time that their SawStop went off and it prevented an injury.
fred
Like several other powered tools, machinery and equipment – table saws can be dangerous in the hands of the untrained and careless. I’m not sure where table saw injuries rank compared to every other type of accident that will land you at the ER – but I read that they account for something like 30,000 incidents per year. Yet many so-called contractors may not think to rigorously train their employees in the proper use of table saws. I think that may be particularly true with smaller jobsite saws – where I’ve observed some pretty bad practices over the years. Worse yet – the low price of some entry-level saws likely encourage some buyers to jump into the club – thinking that they don’t need training any more than for using many other power tools like drills and circular saws.
My home shop table saw is a 50+ year old Unisaw – bought new – which has served me well. About 13 years ago I also bought a Bosch 4100 – to be more transportable. If I were buying again today – Sawstop would be hard to pass by – although I’d also be considering one of the European saws from Hammer – if I were replacing the Unisaw. I had a kickback incident many years ago that was a wakeup call – to reevaluate my practices. I’m also a believer in circadian rhythms – and avoid tablesaw tasks in the afternoon when I’m not 100%.
On a pre-Covid visit with my ex-compatriots – I did not observe any Sawstop saws in use in the Cabinet shop – saw the old Oliver rip saw, A Felder sliding table saw (having replaced an old Shop Fox), the same 2 old Unisaws. I’m not sure what the guys are now using in the remodeling business – but I suspect that they are just replacing Dewalts as old ones come to the end of life.
John E
“I’m also a believer in circadian rhythms – and avoid tablesaw tasks in the afternoon when I’m not 100%”
This!
Most every workplace accident is avoidable and can be minimized by developing good habits.
William Adams
The best advice I ever got was in shop class:
>Before turning on any power tool, visualize the entire operation and all forces which will be involved, and count to 10 under your breath to yourself on your fingers and remember that you want to be able to repeat that count after the operation is complete when you turn the machine off.
John E
The airbags and seatbelts in my car don’t encourage me to drive faster or take unnecessary risks. It’s really up to the user to take responsibility for his/her own actions.
I treat any tool like it’s capable of and wants to tear my hand off. When I have the space for it, I’ll most likely get a Sawstop, despite their predatory bro business practices. I once saw their reps at a trade show and the smugness and arrogance was off the charts. However, the cost of a major injury that can be more of less avoided is worth it. I certainly wouldn’t buy a car that came without seatbelts, even if it were legal.
John
I don’t think the technology itself builds complacency, nor do I believe that the “safety net” is going to cause people to engage in reckless behavior. Mistakes can happen to anyone and the benefit of this product is a less severe penalty for being tired, rushing to finish a job, absent mindedness, pushing too hard, having a brutal hangover, being too lazy to track down your push-stick, etc.. If you are prone to complacency, you probably shouldn’t own a table saw, band saw or other wood working tools to begin with. People who purchase this type of equipment are typically aware of the dangers and purchase the product with a full understanding of potential risks. The Saw Stop technology is very beneficial, but it is not a replacement for safe operating practices and shouldn’t be viewed as such.
bwh
“Some detractors make the argument that SawStop safety tech creates a safety net that could lower some users’ guard, possibly leading to poor or unsafe practices”
Yes. and some people think seatbelts creates a safety net too. So what, it protects you from dumb mistakes.
Yes it costs more, but one accident with a sawstop suddenly makes it cheaper than the $4k powermatic with stitches and follow up visits.
Better have it, and not need it, than need it and be called stubby.
Nathan
as an engineer I’m of a number of mindsets and I am reminded by an adage we were taught. Not matter how fool proof you make something God will make a dumber fool.
Now reality. I like the basics of the idea, and I like the idea of safety features. One of my first child labor engineer (co op program in college) was to setup light and laser curtains in a shop. 2 ton to 300 ton presses. so been there done that so to speak. Likewise I setup stop and close systems on chrome platting operations. Think prevent people from getting into the tanks
However – I have issues with the way the inventor went about using his invention and the lawsuits and the demands. Rubs me the wrong way – if truly altruistic then it should have ben free for all. Yeah I know you profit off your hard work . . . but some of the statements upset me.
OK but once you get use to the table saw that won’t cut you how long until you use a different saw and forget the rest will. Oh sure form factor will remind you not to cross the blade path or area. No it won’t in due time. So where then is the saw stop equavalient for jig, recip, circular (should be easy right) and other saws. Chain saws even have that 2 hand release brake. So where is my stopping circ saw (I mean really a bar that jams up the blade in the guard) or that jig saw.
That’s one issue – complacency across platforms.
Then what about all the other table saws without it – so you use someone elses or go to another place and forget.
cost of the blades and brakes. It makes a bit more sense in a cabinet or large base say than a portable one – but Bosch managed to do it.
I’d almost prefer a light curtain type system but it would take some work. again though I see this more of a coverup for complacency. How many people use a table saw with the guards off – I do. I’ll admit it but only for certain cuts. and then I put the guard on. I am rightfully scared of the saw. respectful/scared use which word you want.
Same if I use a jig saw. That’s my main issue with it.
Now I see these sliding table saws and that’s another solution that also brings a bit of repeatability to the equation. I like that but also rather spendy.
fred
I have a Delta sliding table on my Unisaw. Not the best and certainly not the newest implementation of that technology – but it works for some operations. My opinion though – is that ripping can be a more dangerous operation. A hidden defect or internal stress in the wood – or pinch between the blade and the fence can result in a serious problem. My Unisaw has no riving knife or anti-kickback pawls to help and the splitters I’ve used with blade inserts are not as good. While I often use featherboards and rollers to hold the work down – ripping requires attention and care. In our cabinet shop we had a dedicated Oliver straight line rip saw with powered feeder – that made things a bit safer.
G Greene
I had a 5hp General that I ‘upgraded’ to a SawStop cabinet saw a couple of years ago (which I just got around to rewiring for 240v operation.) I’ve never had an injury from a table saw, but I upgraded specifically to the SawStop for its safety technology. I wouldn’t have done so if I thought the SawStop was otherwise inferior, but I don’t think that at all. As for safety technology, as long as it doesn’t impede usage, I’m for it. S**t happens, people get injured daily, a lot of them on table saws, and they’re not all idjits. If you’re anti-safety, then ditch the riving knife, blade guard, safety goggles, etc. After all, you’ll develop much better skills without them, yes? Nonsense. I approach *every* piece of power equipment like it was a snake ready to strike – I make sure I’m not too tired, hungry, etc., and that I’m actively engaged in what I’m doing, not distracted or thinking of other things, or the next operation. The brain is the best piece of safety equipment we have, you just have to make sure the operator is using it to its full potential.
Badger 12345
Our local high school woodworking shop upgraded to SawStop table saws when they became available. The conversion allows students, after appropriate training, to use the saws which was not allowed when using traditional saws. It has improved the educational experience for students and increased their interest in the trades.
William Adams
When I went to high school, it was expected that students would learn good safety practices and habits and be able to use the equipment safely.
As noted above:
The best advice I ever got was in shop class:
>Before turning on any power tool, visualize the entire operation and all forces which will be involved, and count to 10 under your breath to yourself on your fingers and remember that you want to be able to repeat that count after the operation is complete when you turn the machine off.
Mikedt
If I had unlimited funds of course I’d trade in my current saw for a Saw Stop. Who doesn’t like their fingers???
Hon Cho
I’m glad Sawstop exists and I’m glad that their patents will soon expire and the marketplace will produce alternatives. While I would prefer that consumers be able to choose whether they want the safety technology or not, I suspect once the big tool manufacturers have their own safety technologies in place, there will be renewed pressure on government regulators to mandate Sawstop-like features.
Marvin L. McConoughey
Concur. I believe the government was reluctant to hand SawStop a monopoly.
David Funk
I bought one, as a heavy user I see the value in it. Most good blades will survive a activation. My Dado stack did, side note, make sure your JessEm clear cut stock guides have plenty of clearance. I have three children that I will teach to use a table saw in a safe manner but it is a nice to have the back up. I grew up on a Jet cabinet saw and the SS is just as well built. I saw, in person, a Forest saw blade salesman put his finger is the blade at the Des Moines Acme tool show, the SS saved him and I believe he sold more SS that day then he sold blades.
Hoser
This to me is high on the stupidest things ever done list. This just drives the point home that people are too reliant on tech. You should NEVER stick your finger into a blade no matter how many safety features are built into it. Look at the example of the dude and his F150 above, when he needed the tech, it didn’t work. People sticking their finger into a blade, even if it is a SS saw shows the real stupidity that is out there.
dave jones
Bosch’s reaxx saw violated 2 patents, 1 has already expired, the other expires on feb 1st 2022 so we might see bosch re-release that model or an improved model this year.
Peter
That is good to know, thank you.
At least on paper I think the Bosch is better in way that is does not destroy the blade and the cartridge can be used twice iirc.
Marvin L. McConoughey
Agree. Ruining a blade is a major negative with the SawStop.
Peter
I see it similar to an airbag.
Do I ever want to use it or drive like it will save me?
Not a chance and I also do not think about having airbags in the car while driving.
But it is good know that there is an additional layer of safety just case of an accident.
Specially thinking about how easy it can be to get hurt and the expenses following.
Jason Lester
I cut the very tip of my left thumb off about 30 years ago. I still have no idea for sure what I did wrong. The board kicked back (old saw with no splitter or riving knife). I’m assuming I reached for it to try and control it. I should have been using featherboards and a guard for sure.
I have a Sawstop PCS now. I had one cartridge trip, but the saw start switch was off at the time (main power was on). They checked the cartridge and said they don’t know why it tripped and sent a replacement. The blade wasn’t damaged since it wasn’t turning. I think it was a static electricity shock. Other than that, no accidents. It’s just one extra layer of safety, I still follow all the other rules for using a tablesaw safely. The riving knife and guard are huge improvements that help as well.
Champs
This is more like a hobby to me so I have the time to think through possibly half a dozen cuts every month or so. I would like to have the technology but the upgrade costs more than a track saw, which would further limit my exposure.
Professionally, I couldn’t see another option. If the chance of disaster is one in a million, working by the hour has a way of shrinking those odds, and every time you use it is a test. Why buy light duty tools for heavy duty jobs?
Ian
We had several of the pro saws in the carpentry dept. 7-8 activations over 2-3 years with about 15-20 staff in the dept.
I personally cannot support Stephen Gass. I would include his honorific, but honorifics are for people deserving of honor.
Doresoom
I’m pretty sure I watched the same video. My jaw dropped at the carelessness irresponsibility shown by the operator. No matter how tired I am, no matter if I’m somehow ultra distracted and daydreaming, I do not believe there’s any way I would have made the same mistake. He reached directly and purposefully into the blade.
Did too much trust in SawStop tech lead up to the incident? Possibly. Did lack of training contribute? Definitely. Lack of personal responsibility and critical thinking were also probably on the table(saw).
I’m glad SawStop tech exists. I hope to own a saw with that capability someday, whether it’s SawStop or some other brand. But it’s no excuse for dropping all respect for a tool that can still maim the operator in the blink of an eye. I’ll be the SawStop user manual still has safety instructions that the user in this particular video ignored.
In the end, I only trust myself to keep me safe. Same reason I unplug my table saw for blade changes. I don’t THINK that power switch is going to magically malfunction and activate with me arm-deep in the saw, but I sure don’t want to suffer the consequences if it does.
What if a SawStop’s circuit board was shocked with ESD juuust the wrong way during manufacturing, and doesn’t fire in a 1/1,000,000 chance? What if the tolerance stackup on the mechanical parts is a statistical anomaly and everything binds instead of dropping the blade below the table? What if, what if, what if…
Kent Hanson
There were people who were against seatbelts when they were first introduced. Can’t fix stupid but can make it safer for stupid.
Michael Veach
Simple answer, I can’t afford one so I’ll just have to use safety practices.
Mike9842
I can’t afford to lose a finger.
What’s the cost to reattach a finger?
SawStop, you can’t afford to be without it.
Franco Calcagni
I can’t afford to be in a car collision, and airplane crash, a train wreck and a multitude of other injury related scenarios.
People have been using table saws for years. I have for about 40 years, my neighbor about the same, and many people I know, likewise. I can honestly say I do not know anyone personally that has lost a finger, except going way back 50 years to HS shop class, a classmate lost part of his finger in a jointer.
I do not know what the statistics are for how many people that own a table saw to how many of these have lost a finger (not accidents because other table saw accidents like from kickback are irrelevant).
Compare this to other accidents in life, I do not think the numbers would standout.
GM
Over 30,000 accidents per year with treatment costs estimated at over $2 billion. Sound pretty significant to me.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4154236/
Franco Calcagni
Looks like they extrapolate numbers based on some criteria, but most importantly, in the conclusion state…”SawStop technology stops the saw blade when contact with skin is made”
The numbers could be true, but I believe this is article might be at arms length connected to SawStop
alex
I love the technology but I would put the money in a euro sliding saw which are much safer by protecting you from the blade and kickbacks. I wish all table saw would have some sort of tray that you can flip behind your board when you’re ripping instead of a dumb push stick. I believe table saw are inherently dangerous by design. Pushing unfastened lumber through a fast spinning blade. What could go wrong…
If you don’t have a ton of money, at least invest in some sort of rollers/featherboards and keep your blade guard on.
fred
I remember watching old swing blade saw in operation – that was indeed an accident waiting to happen.
I agree with you about the European saws – but i also believe that the EU has universally banned dado blade operation.
Hugo
I wish they’d introduce it properly to the UK/Europe market. The SawStop-powered Festool TKS80 is here, but it’s a lightweight and not very rigid site saw, with a cabinet saw price. I’m in the market for either an American-style cabinet saw, or a European-style sliding table saw with the SawStop (or similar) tech.
Tom Woolley
I’ve had my SawStop 5HP ICS for 15 years. It’s a quality saw, with a back-up safety system. I have NOT reduced my vigilance one bit. In fact turning on that saw causes me to reflect on the need for safe practices every time. That increase in carefulness also carries over to the bandsaw, jointer, planer, drill press and all the rest (especially the router table with a big door panel cutter bit…) I wish the technology would be applied to all the tools. My wife’s father tangled with a Shopsmith blade when she was a kid. He lost fingers. I’ll never put her through that again.
Ross
All my firearms have a safety, and we always treat them as though the safety is off. From a use point I don’t see how this is different.
Tyler
Seatbelts don’t make me drive more recklessly. My fingers are with more than $2000 to me.
Albert
I think of SawStop like an air bag. I don’t plan on using it, but sure like that it is there.
The cabinet saw is far too big and expensive for me. I looked at the jobsite saw when I stopped at Lee Valley years ago on a road trip. I didn’t think much of the fence. I don’t know if things have improved since then.
I would love something about the size of a Dewalt DW745 with a somewhat reasonable price.
MoogleMan3
Worth every penny. I’m saving for a sawstop now, but that purchase is right behind my CNC.
Bob Hinden
I made my decision on this topic a few years ago when I decided to upgrade my old table saw, I got a SawStop 3hp PCS 36″. This is the third table saw I have owned, and still have all of my fingers. I had a few kickbacks with my earlier table saws, none with the PCS.
It is a great table saw and it has the safety features. I continue to be careful and have not set off the blade brake. The other safety features I like are the dust collection blade guard and riving knife. Both work very well. On my previous saws I removed them because they got in the way. Safety features that get used are useful.
My conclusion is that I ended up with a great table saw (that is safer than my previous table saws). For me, the extra safety feature was worth the incremental cost.
p.s. The dust collection is also very good.
Flotsam
My table saw was built circa 1964 so none of the lovely technology in mine. I believe i bought it for $50 like 35 years ago.
I was lucky in that i took wood shop back in High School. First thing they did was instill basic safety procedures in using all the Shop’s power tools. I have tried to follow those guidelines for years.
I had a guy i knew from work that showed up one day minus 2 of his fingers. It was sadly a table saw story and as he related it he was just being a bit careless. I don’t know if i would ever get lackadaisical about using any power tool, but if my saw had it , it would be nice.
MtnRanch
Some of these arguments start to sound like the guy who’s pissed off because he paid for life insurance and hasn’t used it.
John Blair
Accidents can happen to anyone. Experience does not protect you. Rank amateurs may be less safe but they spend less time doing it. Professionals are safer but they spend more time doing it. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve seen the people I trust most with table saw safety have ended up hurting themselves the people I wouldn’t trust near a table saw alone haven’t had accidents.
If you are 10 times safer than the average person but use the saw 20 times more, you will have twice as many accidents than the average person. Even if you are 100x safer, time will eventually catch up with you. Even the safest people I know have ended up losing part of a finger within 20 years. You cannot keep perfect concentration every moment of every day for the rest of your life especially when you are doing repetitive production work.
Chris
I bought Bosch’s flesh-sensing saw when you could still get it, and I like the tech better than SawStop (though it did mis-fire on me a couple times and “waste” a cartridge, it doesn’t kill the blade). That’s only a jobsite model, so I sold it recently and upgraded to a SawStop PCS when I moved to a house with more shop space. I have the cash and it’s worth the investment to hopefully never need to use the technology but know it’s there just in case.
The biggest complaint I have is that SawStop’s mechanism claims that blades with “anti-kickback shoulders” can interfere with the mechanism and potentially leave you with worse injury than blades without them (but still better off than without a flesh-sensing saw). This is just a blurb in the FAQ/manual and when I emailed them for details, SawStop refused give me any specifics about how/why this is the case — given their focus on safety you’d think there would be a video somewhere showing off the difference in cuts on a hot dog or fewer photos/videos from “influencers” who are clearly using less-safe blades. It also means that in a awy SawStop saws *do* “do less” than other brands to prevent kickback.
The problem is that more and more blades include these safety mechanisms, especially any “inexpensive” ones under $100. I bought a combo CMT blade because the photo shows they don’t have shoulders, but CMT has since added them to a number of blades. In the end, the chance of kickback is so much higher than the chance of running my hand into the blade, so I decided to keep my CMT blade, but still replaced a rip blade that has rather large shoulders for a Ridge blade without.
Beanhole
I was shopping for an older used Delta Unisaw until I saw a Jimmy Diresta video about his table saw injury. I figured if someone as experienced as he could almost lose a finger….it would just be a matter of time until I did. He wasn’t pitching Sawstop and he didn’t even have one at the time. My wife happened to be watching that video too and it was an easy decision from there. I had no choice but to get a Sawstop. It was about 3x what I was planning to spend, but I have never regretted my decision. If you can afford it…you won’t regret it.
I treat my Sawstop as if the safety features don’t exists, but I’m glad they are there. I’ve had it for about 5 years now. Still going strong. Still on the same cartridge. I’ve never had a trip. I came close once while cutting some green\wet cedar, but I saw the flashing light detecting moisture and stopped before it tripped. I just disabled the safety feature and went on with that project.
If a Sawstop can’t do what you need it to do…I understand and of course you shouldn’t get one. If you can’t afford a Sawstop…again, don’t get one. But if you think safety features like this create bad habits….that is simply a symptom of a bigger problem and you are severely misguided and completely miss the point. That situation only applies if you are already a moron and you nor I can fix that. Nevertheless, a moron with a Sawstop is a safer moron than without.
Will
I think its a great invention but **** sawstop for having a patent on appendage saving tech, and selling it at a premium. This is something we could have in 400-600 dollar portable table saws and sawstop screws everyone over.
Paul
I’ve been a woodworker for more than 40 years without injury from the blade of any piece of motorized equipment. I believe this is due to my understanding and proficiency of the tools I work with.
However, I am also a safety professional who knows that steps to prevent injury include eliminating or mitigating risk. The same process exists for equipment as well as human factors. So, if the risk can be eliminated for both by installed safety features, that is always the best option.
JoeM
I’m going to put this as politely as I possibly can.
Considering the Patent and Litigation history of Sawstop, I would rather find a way to cut off my own testes on their largest competitors’ saw, than to put money toward their money-grabbing scheme.
And a Scheme it most certainly is. They tried to sue their way into holding the patent, plus get their “technology” set as a requirement of all brands by OSHA or some similar global standard safety agency. That’s not a move I can forgive for any reason. That jacked up the price over one silly component that makes up barely 2% of the function of the whole device. They were forcing themselves into a niche that they created for themselves alone. That’s typically a violation of anti-trust laws, and yet here they are, still using the SawStop name to sell this.
In 1921, a team of Medical Scientists at the University of Toronto, up here in the North, discovered and patented Insulin to treat Diabetes. Seeing the urgency of the need for this brilliant product, they made the argument that it was a must for Pharmaceutical companies to produce it as much as possible, as fast as possible. But Insulin is not something so insanely expensive as to prohibit access to it. Such an urgent matter of public safety is, globally anyways, extremely inexpensive. To save lives, the UofT team sold their patent for just $1 in order to keep it affordable worldwide. Now, I understand there are countries like the USA where Insulin is marked up to the point of breaking some families’ lives in order to pay for it. This was never the intention of the creators, and as a global standard, every other civilized G7 or First World country still keeps their Insulin prices affordable to the lowest classes of their citizens, as well as providing free, or donated, doses by the millions to the Third World to help mitigate both Type 1 and 2 Diabetes worldwide.
Now… ask yourself… if SawStop truly wanted to save lives, prevent injury, and guarantee their technology was available across the board… Wouldn’t they have done what UofT did, and sell the Patent to the safety agencies for pennies on the dollar, instead of keeping it to themselves? Better yet, wouldn’t they have lowered their licensing fees to something other saw makers could easily integrate into their production line? They didn’t do that. At all. So we can only say one thing for certain. SawStop didn’t make this technology to save lives, they did it to get rich quick, like a Ponzi Scheme does.
For that reason, I’ll never give patronage to SawStop. And I’ll greatly lecture anyone who does about how wrong it is. What they did is unfathomably wrong, and regardless of its effectiveness, the Ends don’t justify the Means by any stretch of the imagination.
Jared
Devil’s advocate here.
The inventor of SawStop tech presumably didn’t hold a salaried (largely publicly-funded) university position when he came up with and developed the idea. I’m guessing the idea was explicitly to make some money. There’s lots of product ideas in the tool industry that companies develop and then guard jealously.
Didn’t Milwaukee sue Makita over their 12v battery pack design? Does Kreg need to give away their jigs? The way some tool companies make money is explicitly by protecting their IP.
Is it because the idea touches on safety that it needs to be given away? Wouldn’t that mean that inventors would ignore anything intended to improve safety because they’d know at the end, it would have to be given away?
I don’t know the details of the story, except what I’m reading in comments. It seems like the animosity relates at least in part to having creating something that improves safety – yet not having the “appropriate” motivation.
JoeM
Totally acceptable position. Though, Canada didn’t have Tenured or Salaried Professors at our Universities until 1960. All things they produced, research, innovations, anything they made, were property of the University or College that housed their Labs, and doled out their Grants. Intellectual Property on Insulin, to this day, belongs to UofT. The resale patent, on the other hand, was sold off at $1 to transfer the rights to the Private sector. Reminder though: In 1921, the Canadian Dollar was worth the equivalent of around $50 Canadian now… It’s not a huge jump, but the patent didn’t go for free, and UofT still holds a tiny kickback, approximately $500 per year in fact, since that patent is now split in ownership across a minimum of 10 Private Pharmaceutical Companies.
I don’t debate, for a second, that the invention was designed to save limbs and digits for the better operation of Table Saws. That is without any debate at all.
The law suits the inventor launched, failed. The patents he filed, brought in zero buyers. He then launched appeal, after appeal, trying to get a law written to mandate his creation be in every Table Saw from now on. This is without ever attempting to lower the price of his Patent to increase interest in its broader purchase. He didn’t do anything a rational business maneuver would call for. Instead he cheated, and called out every lawmaker who turned him down as being everything from jealous of his genius, to dangerous to public safety. Why? His next move was to skip the offerings of his patents to the companies, and went straight to forcing every company on the planet to buy into his Patent At his Asking Price, and No Lower
That’s an Anti-Trust violation. An attempted Monopoly, which ended up failing. Over the course of many years, he continued to whine, complain, and deny offers from companies to buy his whole operation out. Then, I believe it was Bosch? (Correction of which company is entirely welcome.) came up with the magic number he wanted, and the large SawStop table saws came to market.
That’s not making money. That’s a childish hissy fit, thrown by a grown man who didn’t realize how little his creation was worth. Like I said, it’s 2% of the whole machine. It’s not worth his asking price. Now that burden of covering what he was charging is on the company that bowed to his tantrum. These saws are paying off a legal dispute settlement to a criminal. I won’t have any part in that. Businesswise, he was dense and entitled. Greater Men have Profited More from Superior Tactics. He never learned that lesson. And his excuses fall into the “easily dismissed as profiteering, not profit” category.
So… To the Devil’s Advocate, I would say No, I still wouldn’t sell my soul to pay 4x what a machine is worth, simply because it has a 2% alteration for safety. The value isn’t there, it never was. Halve the prices, have the company lose money on their investment until the patents expire, and then bring the product to market at a price that allows easier entry for those that would benefit from the innovation most. Thus evading his ultimate goals of being remembered as a saviour of any sort. The ones who will take his place, and lowered the price to something reasonable to the improvement, will get the glory and deny his. Until that happens? No thank you, I’ll buy a DeWALT, or I’ll go for a more industrial brand in a shop environment. But every safety precaution will be covered, no need for that device at all.
David
Good comment!
Jim Felt
Dr. Jonas Salk the originator of the first Polio Vaccine both tested it on himself than his own children and subsequently gave it to society.
As you also know financially motivated cretins have jacked Insulin prices into the stratosphere.
Two very different outcomes too very for the common good ideas.
I’d think SawStop is somewhere in the middle?
No?
JoeM
Salk and the UofT team (I just find 4 letters easier to keep typing rather than 4 names.) used the excuse “For the benefit of All” as a reason to reduce their prices for the patent ownership in the Private sector.
SawStop’s tactics were to use “For the necessity of All” as a reason for his high asking price for sale of the patent to be used by other manufacturers. When that failed, because he over-priced it, expecting an instant payout instead of a long-term ROI, he resorted to attempting to extort his way into becoming a Government-Mandated Monopoly to get what he wanted. This is not in between the work of what so many others have done. I admit that the Medical field is quite full of people creating dirt-cheap solutions for desperately needed problems, so it is easy to cancel much of what my UofT example means to compare to SawStop.
The problem is with the founder’s attempt to gain a Monopoly, and gouging the price from the start. I am fully aware that many pharmaceutical companies in the US taking universal patents, and gouging the prices on their generic versions.
Honestly, I can’t talk about the Price Gouging without addressing the difference in Political systems we live in, and the use of Public Services for citizens… If you and I were off grabbing lunch or something, I could easily clarify why the differences don’t apply to SawStop’s behaviour, or the needless overpricing of the products… but Stuart doesn’t want us talking Politics.
You have good points, and are very reasonable, I’m not going to call you names, nor am I, in any way insulted or against what you’ve said. I just can’t clarify without breaking Stuart’s rules. Sorry.
David
I may have posted this here before. I’m a fan. I have one, because it’s way, way cheaper than an ER visit, let alone a finger.
I spent a few years trying to persuade my dad to get one – everything from “let us split the cost” to “we’ll get you one as a family for your birthday” and even “Let me just have one delivered, I’ll even put it together for you”.
My mom solved it, after hearing me ask him yet again.
She looked over at me and said “David, I’d *really* like a Sawstop table saw. I think I’ll keep it in your dad’s workshop.”
My dad admitted defeat, and bought himself the Sawstop. He’s never had a serious injury from a tablesaw accident in 60+ years of time doing hobbyist woodworking and growing building houses (he did have a nice horizontal plywood shaped bruise from kickback for a while). But it’s really good insurance as he gets older, and he admitted it’s a pretty darn nice saw.
Rx9
I think its nice having the extra layer of safety. Ask most motorcyclists, no better yet, ask most EMTs who have been called to a motorcycle accident about whether or not helmets are “dangerous because they breed complacency”, and you will be laughed out of the room. The same applies to power tools.
William E.
The guy lecturing us on saw stop making money and not sharing technology for free is an idiot. His rant comparing saw stop to insulin patents is ridiculous. Diabetes is not a choice its a disease your brand and safety functions of your table saw is a choice you can buy iy or not . Companies try to get their tech into the mainstream all the time so what if sawstop tries to make money. I have 35 + years working with a table saw and i thought i was really safe and it wasn’t going to happen to me. Lucky for me i only got a 1/8″ kerf across three fingers but it still was a trip to the Emergency room for stitches.
I replaced my table saw with a Sawstop and I have nothing but good to say about it its a great saw and yes it was more money but i also have peace of mind about not losing my fingers
I still practice the best safety i can but have a insurance policy in the blade brake but i repeat it didn’t make me complacent. If i lose a blade and have to replace the brake so what sure is much better than lost fingers. Oh and the fact now that im older due to medical issues take a blood thinner that if i got cut bad i could bleed out before i got help so again sawstop allows me a peace of mind insurance to do what i enjoy. My final answer is its money well spent i would do it again and i highly recommend sawstop but its a free country buy what you want and hope you don’t lose any fingers.
JoeM
No, actually I argued that SawStop committed an Anti-Trust crime, and got away with it. Their arguments to Government Standards, and repeated failed Court Appeals, was that “Their Product Saves Lives” which is identical to the argument made by the UofT team.
The difference here is whether or not I’m willing to go as far as to pay a criminal for something they claim will “Save My Life” while simultaneously risking my capacity to pay bills, and make enough off that over-inflated purchase, to warrant something that can be remedied with push sticks and overhead lighting for half the price.
The answer is No. I won’t committ a Crime by Association in order to mitigate damages that are both easily avoided, and knowingly aware of the Crime I’d be supporting if I chose them. As the category of crime suggests, Anti-Trust Scam, they are Scammers who I cannot Trust as a company. They lied about how important their technology was, straight to several courts’ faces. Something I know can be avoided, because the UofT team faced the exact same moral quandry. Save Lives, or Get Rich. SawStop tried to have both. They tried to have a Monopoly.
It’s Illegal. Therefore, I don’t support it. I won’t buy one because they’re criminal for doing what they did in the courts. If my Livelihood is at stake, then I use a very dangerous tool in a proven safe way, instead of paying into the legal funds of criminals who were creating something only moderately valuable to people’s lives. They wanted to add 4x the price to every table saw in the world, for an object that only makes up 2% of the function of a Table Saw. That’s criminal in any country, whether there’s public healthcare systems or not.
Ross
Is it illegal? Look at the EpiPen. The makers of the EpiPen successfully lobbied the US government to mandate EpiPens be in every school because they save lives. After they did that, they jacked up the prices hundreds of dollars a dose. There was no alternative at the time, so they successfully got a government mandated monopoly.
Franco Calcagni
Not illegal, and the mandating in schools for something life saving like this is not terrible, but the jacking up of the prices is. That is the world we live in…nice huh?
JoeM
In the US, you live that way. Everywhere else in the civilized world, it’s covered with government Health Care systems. Plus, nations like Canada manufacture their own, they aren’t dependent on US pharmaceutical companies.
I think I should probably make clear that I’m Canadian, and probably have an obvious bias due to experience living here. This topic has been up the past 2 days, and it’s only dawning on me now that some of you may be getting angry at me for what I’ve said, and it’s my fault for not clarifying this part.
I am sorry. I didn’t mean any ill feelings among any of us. Though… I do say I’m sorry a lot… perhaps it’s not wise to follow stereotypes, but you had to suspect something a little North about me by now, right?
I’ll correct everything this way: Due to how SawStop came into being, I don’t approve of their Business Tactics. So I would rather a different brand, to keep a clean conscience from any association with them.
That work for you guys?
Franco Calcagni
I am not disagreeing with you. I was just stating that these practices are not illegal, that being mandatory laws for schools to have them, and to jack up the prices; all legal in our capitalist society…USA, Canada, and probably some European counties also, all legal.
I also believe that mandating the acceptance of something new is sometimes necessary, like a life saving Epi Pen for schools to have on their premises, but not a saw that can save your finger. Governments should leave this, as most things, to the individual to decide.
Then the practice of jacking up the prices (beyond a healthy profit, to the point of price gouging), when you have a monopoly and a patent to protect your monopoly, well, that’s the world we live in. It has happened throughout the ages, but seems more prolific in today’s society.
Koko The Talking Ape
Excellent points here.
My personal take is that if it will prevent a severed finger, I’ll get it. I understand that kickback is a separate issue, so I’ll take separate measures to prevent that. The idea that it will create “complacency” makes no sense to me. Seatbelts don’t prevent all auto injuries either. Did they promote complacency? I don’t think so.
Addison
“It’s a simple idiot-proofing scheme that’s very effective. But no idiot-proofing can overcome a determined idiot.” ― Andy Weir
The Saw Stop paradox, there are many. Like your shop class gets one, immediately outside kids can be playing soccer getting multiple concussions, saving fingers? Sawstop using lawfare against other manufacturers in MANY ways.
THEN THE PRICE:
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/jobsite-saw-pro-with-mobile-cart-assembly-sawstop
https://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-10-Inch-2-Inch-Capacity-DWE7491RS/dp/B00F2CGXGG/
The Dewalt is fantastic, of the 100 plus table saw setups, I have had or used ranging from the Tool Shop job sight saw to Unisaws, and cabinet saws, the Dewalt job sight 10″ with rack and pinion fence is a delight, every time. For $1000 I could get this BS saw that only is good at saving hotdogs from getting cut in two. If you place your fingers in proximity of a rotating piece of metal you are an idiot. But also if you think that technology will save any careless idiot from the fate they seem to be trying to attain.
GM
I was a high school Woodworking teacher for 38 years, until I retired in 2020. In my second year of teaching, when I was only 23 years old, I had a student suffer a near-amputation on a 1950’s Delta Unisaw. With the machine turned off and the blade spinning down, he lifted the guard and tried to remove an offcut that was touching the blade. The slowing blade still had enough energy to pull the offcut into the throat of the machine with the student’s hand attached. His index finger was almost, but not quite, severed and a skilled surgeon let him keep the finger. The student had seen my table saw safety lecture/demonstration and passed my safety test both of which explicitly proscribed the exact actions that he took. Nevertheless, table saw safety received even more emphasis in my classroom. And I never again had a student seriously injure themself on a table saw, SawStop or otherwise.
Fast forward a few years. I had met Steve Gass several times at AWFS and other Woodworking shows and found him to be a fairly unlikable individual. Plus, I really didn’t like what I perceived to be his “shaking down” of the rest of the Woodworking machinery industry. But, I came to the conclusion that I couldn’t continue to take the personal financial risk of being sued if a student was to again injure himself on a table saw while under my supervision. So, eventually I had 3 SawStop Industrial Cabinet Saws in my shop.
After using them for many years, my take is that the SawStop Industrial Cabinet Saw is worth the money. It is a well-made saw with a few flaws. A minor annoyance concerned the switches on the access doors. They would sometimes malfunction, usually due to dust build-up, and prevent the saw from operating. Another issue is that the handwheels are not keyed to their shafts which causes eventual slippage and unnecessary wear to the shafts. A bigger problem was random activation of the brake cartridges. I often had cartridges activate with no apparent reason. SawStop makes a big deal of their policy that if you send an activated cartridge to them, at your expense, they will tell you the reason that the cartridge has activated. But the reason is always that a conductive material has touched the blade. More than once, I spoke to SawStop engineers at AWFS or on the phone, and they always had the same answer: in a school environment, the most common reason for activation is letting a metallic tape measure touch the blade while the blade is spinning. But, after I learned this, I always checked all the tape measures in my shop and I never found one with a nick in the blade. Nor were there students with nicks in their fingers. What causes these activations? Nobody knows. But this leads us to another SawStop issue. Changing a cartridge is a pain-in-the-butt. I’ve done it many, many times. So, I’m pretty good at it. My best time, including reinstalling the blade and realigning the splitter bracket, is about 20 minutes. It’s still a pain-in-the-butt.
John
Had a table saw injury in 2014, side swiped my right middle figer, removed a lot of flesh and cut into the bone. ER visit for 10 hours, plastic surgery, hand occupational therapy and the final cost for one finger was more than $25,000, thankful for decent healthcare plan.
So I bought a Sawstop professional cabinet saw end of 2014 and continue to treat it with all respect.
Dave Clark
I used a Grizzly 10 cab saw since 1983. I upgraded to a Sawstop Pro cab saw 2 years ago. I never got a scratch on my Grizzly due to good safety habits BUT after getting the Sawstop I am hyper aware of setting off the brake and even more safe than ever before. No complacency in my shop.
Tim
This. I wanted a good high quality saw and for a few hundred more you get the safety tech. I’m also careful to not trip the break since it’s 90 or so for a cartridge and 130 to 150 for the blade.
Pat
I have a SawStop, and honestly I didn’t buy it for the brake. After all the years of experience I have, I’m more concerned with kick back than hitting the blade with my fingers.
I bought mine solely for the quality of the tool as a whole, even though I wished I had the option to have the brake or not. I am quite happy with mine.
Travis Honaker
I wanted a Sawstop, I just didn’t want to spend the money on it. I inherited my dad’s old Craftsman contractor saw when he died. He’d cut his thumb nearly off on it about two years before he died. He’d literally spent thousands of hours pushing wood through it without incident. Blink of an eye, nearly cut his thumb off. It sit in his shop for two years before I went and got it. My adult nephew who is very mechanical, tool savvy, and has common sense asked to use it. He went there and used it many times over the two year period. Then one day he had a kickback incident that literally exploded half of his thumb. Gone from the knuckle up. About a year after moving it to my place I cut a 1/8″ wide groove in the tip of my thumb. I bought a 3 hp Sawstop PCS. No regrets. It’s an awesome saw. The cursed Craftsman sits idle. Covered. I don’t dare sell or or give it to someone. I suppose I’ll have to dismantle it some day so it can’t attack anyone else.
Dean
Just went on their site and priced the JOBSITE SAW PRO with one extra cartridge. That cost $1688 delivered (plus tax on top of that probably). They need to cut that in half and more. Make an portable saw and stand combo with the protection built in and include an extra cartridge for $700-800 and I bet they would fly off the shelf. People want their amazing safety technology. Justifying the cost is the hard part. Of course if you have an accident with any saw there are tons of related expenses from doctor and hospital bills, not to mention all the wasted time. That all equates to something. But the average joe uses the saw a couple times a year to a few times a month. Paying that high of a premium can’t be justified for the little use it will get. Make it more mainstream. Find ways to reduce costs to give everyone the safety they deserve. Yes you can charge a premium, but four to six time the cost of a typical name brand saw is way to much!
Stacey Jones
Personally, I look at the table saw and it just looks like the most dangerous type of woodworking tool ever made. Shoving a heavy chunk of wood at a naked blade? Not for me. I think the problem with this tool is that it’s easy to learn and use. So much so, that you will eventually become careless. Think I’m wrong? How many people go through life without having a single accident?
Stacey Jones
Meant to say car accident… Yeah, if you are going to use a table saw, you should get one with as many safety features ad possible. Sleds look like they would improve the safety.
David Dille
All this talk of should you or should you not have a sawstop table saw is, IMO, moot. Most of the woodworkers I know, from amateur through “I make my living doing this, would probably have a sawstop table saw if they could cough up the $3500 plus for a saw. Sure it’s safer; so are most $100k plus automobiles but how many of us mortals can afford that. They are so expensive because they are made for an exclusive clientele. They could certainly be manufactured cheaper but then the company would have to sell more and no more exclusivity. Anyone in business knows that it’s better to sell 100 widgets for $1000 than a 1000 for $100.
Is it safer? Yep. Can 98% of the folks who use a table saw afford it? Nope. Yeah, a trip to the hospital can be very expensive. But, see how expensive a divorce is when you walk in and say, honey, I just blew 3 months rent on a table saw!
I guess the 98% of us should just stop using a table saw until we can join the elite crowd and buy a sawstop table saw!
Good Cutting!
Paul
Please be aware that you have many other tools that will do an excellent job of removing your fingers. You have to practice extreme and constant diligence whenever you work in your shop. Reducing the hazard of one tool does not grant you injury immunity.
Chris
I think it’s a fantastic technology. A new brake cartridge and blade will still be cheaper than a hospital bill. But also the saws are pretty pricey themselves, which is going to be a bigger issue for most people. If I was in the market for a new table saw and had the budget to spend, I’d look into the sawstop job site saw.
For the people that hate it, well, maybe just don’t buy one? No, that would be to simple. People will always complain. Even when they have choices.
Ross
All it took for me to have a miter saw accident was a very brief moment of brain fart. Used it a million times and then one time I was just in a hurry. Always used perfect etiquette, until that one time. I don’t buy the complacency argument. We are human. We have lapses in judgment, momentary distractions, focusing over here while your hand slightly gets in the wrong spot, or “just need to get this last cut done”. I’m not complacent with my table saw use when using my sawstop. Why? because I don’t want to waste upwards of $150 to replace the blade and cartridge, plus stop my work. There’s also that little voice of “what if it doesn’t work that one time”. It’s not worth the risk. It’s a safety net against a non-zero risk to significant injury. Unless you’re running your saw with no blade guard or riving knife, I don’t buy it if you say THIS safety feature breeds complacency but those others are fine.
Marvin L. McConoughey
I am a big fan of superior shop lighting. I installed additional task lighting over the table saw and miter saw. That is not enough. An array of jigs, push sticks, guides and, for the miter saw, hold-down clamps further add to safety. None of these are more important, in my view, than not working with these tools when I am tired or pressed for time.
MFC
If I used it all the time I’d want the technology on my planer, table saw, miter saw, lathe, etc.
Nothing is worth your health/hands.
Bob Baker
I was looking to upgrade into a cabinet saw at the end of 2021 and after pricing out good quality 3HP saws, the price difference was surprisingly small.
Evadman
If it were $50-100 option on a saw, I would get it every time. It can even destroy the entire saw if triggered by a body part, still well worth it. If nothing else, destroying a saw instead of losing a finger is a great teaching moment.
Besides cost, I will not purchase it because of how the inventor tried shoving it down everyone’s throats. I echo a lot of the comments above on that. However, if its cheap enough (50-100) then I would give the inventor my money and eat my personal dissatisfaction with hos ethics.
Bob Baker
At this point you would not be giving the inventor any more money by purchasing a SawStop as TTS Tooltechnic Systems bought the company in 2017.
Joe Sob
I’m confused do seat belts make you drive less responsibly or do air bags make you drive faster and more reckless? I don’t know about you but I don’t want to risk ruining a very expensive blade because the stop saw action kicked in and saved me from cutting off my fingers, yes I much rather have that than no fingers plus like seat belts and air bags I don’t want to find out how well they really work, I’ll leave that for the YouTube professionals, but I’m sure am glad they’re there when I do need it. Secondly their very much is a wrong side and a right side to this argument, much like wearing seat belts they’re were plenty of people who would argue it was safer not to wear one when it starting to become mandatory by law to wear one so they’re will always be people who just hate, who don’t like change even if it doesn’t affect them personally (nobody is forcing a stop saw on anyone). I see the same thing in car forums, someone wants help adding lane assist, or cruise control assistance (keeps following distance at a set space) to their car that has the feature in Europe or something as standard equipment but not offered here in the States, and there will be all these people who will say something like “I prefer to drive my car, if you can’t drive your car you should sell it and start taking the bus….” By somehow making the equipment safer to use and operate your an idiot or wrong according to these people, and to put it plainly and simple it’s them who are wrong, if you think making something safer that in no way affects it’s everyday use than I’m sorry but your wrong and yes your an idiot for trying to argue against it.
Dave P
They don’t like treated wood, which we actually rip quite often.
Otherwise they’re great.
Dave
Thomas Edison was an arrogant inventor who stole ideas from others and patented them as his own. If we are using the filter of “The inventor was a jerk” as the only criteria when buying something, we would be foolish. Sawstops technology was, and is, a great idea. Eventually others will profit from it when the patent runs its course. At that time, you can bet that it will increase the cost of every saw that uses the technology. No manufacturer will be including it without raising the price of their product. Nobody is in business to give away free upgrades and technology. If they had that written in their business plan, they would be out of business in a heartbeat. Nothing is free, everything has a cost. Cost drives everything, and every business has the right to make a profit on top of that cost. As for me, I will be saving for a new sawstop cabinet saw. I have had many near catastrophic saw accidents in 40+ years as a woodworker, contractor and tradesman, but luckily, by the grace of God I still have my eyes and digits. I have done stupid things when trying to save time to make money on a job. It happens to everyone, no matter your experience level. Holding a grudge over a stubborn jerk of an inventor who’s principles you find repulsive is no reason to lose a finger, or worse.
fred
Well said!
Few of us like to be told what to do – or worse yet compelled to do it. But if logic, evidence and science can hold sway – then we should be able make decisions that are in our best interest. One problem, however, is that in evaluating risks – even with the data well known and available – is that we have a tough time dealing with low-probability but high consequence events.
Jimmy Delgato
The concept here is no different than in any hobby. Newer things used by newer people in the field is looked down on by the old guard. The argument of safety is clear. A sawstop is safer for your fingers and hands. Show me a single person using a Sawstop that lost a finger on the blade and I doubt you have numbers that show they get more kickbacks. I personally have a $400 jobsite saw and that is where I am at in my hobby. I understand the Sawstop business model with the patents on the legal side but disagree with it in principal. I’m not in the market for a saw at that level so I don’t have to Freud that decision between myself of safety vs principle. I’ll never buy a Keurig brand product even post patent and chip verification.
Patrick
I think good technique needs to be taught no matter who uses the saw. They’re great for areas where litigation is a possibility, i.e. college or school woodshops, and professional corporate shops. When you have people using the saw that may not be used to it or may only need to use it every once in a while, it’s good to have that “safety net” for when they slip.
I was a student shop supervisor at my design schools model shop and the policy was to teach good technique, pay close attention to the use of the table saw when students were using it and if, God forbid, a student trips the brake then they pay for it and a blade. That financial incentive kept them pretty honest and we only had a handful of blade trips in the 3 years I worked in the shop, mostly due to conductive materials being unwittingly cut.
These are expensive, but I would say well worth the cost for the safety factor. We use them in the corporate model shop I’m in now, and the related cabinetry shop at the company as well. I would say these saws are essential in shops like this. For a home-gamer, is the medical bill worth the trade-off if you slip up? The most seasoned wood-workers I know have all had a close call, if not a finger taken off. They’re great saws blade-tech aside.
MM
I do not have a sawstop, but if I had children around or if this saw was one being used by students or employees under my supervision then that would be a different story.
Josh Postema
It’s cool technology and I’d like to have it, but the company itself is horrible. They got a patent for the only effective detection mechanism and then went and lobbied governments to mandate saws capable of stopping for as many places as they could. The combo effectively made a product mandatory while making competition illegal: a literal monopoly.
When their patents expire, I’ll buy a competitor’s saw.
bern
great saw, fantastic tech but I bought a Grizzly. 5hp Grizz $2200 vs 5hp sawstop $5K ish?
Br
I work in a high end cabinet shop we have two table saws a old powermatic and a saw stop 3 phase.
The powermatic in my option is the better of the two, cuts better and twice the power. When making bevel cuts you have to stop every time you go back straight and clean the saw before cutting.
In 10 years of work other than blades no money has been spent on the powermatic, the same can’t be said of the saw stop.
PETE
We should play saw stops game- Lets pass a law that says Saw Stop has to let other companies use their technology for free since it’s all about “safety” as saw stop claims……
Be like volvo- let other people use your invention if it saves lives or limbs.
Bill
If I were buying a new cabinet saw, I would consider a SawStop. I’ve logged thousands of hours using table saws and (knocks wood) no incidents excepting a nasty kickback that sprained my right hand. My mistake for trying to use reaction wood.
I’ve had my Powermatic 66 since 1984 and the saw runs as smooth as butter to this day. It would be difficult to part with that saw – regardless of financial considerations as it was instrumental in building my side business at the time.
IMO, the SawStop people should really license their tech to the industry for a few dollars a unit. To say that you are interested in safety and then hoard all the cards, well that’s just crappy. He’s made his money by now – time to give back.
More importantly, all the home improvement shows on TV really need to use safe practices when filming. Even the old standards such as TOH routinely violate proper saw techniques and harry homeowner doesn’t know enough to realize it.
I had the pleasure of studying under Roger Cliffe in the 70’s and he’s probably spinning in his grave every time one of those disasters waiting to happen appears on TV
Mark R. Ferraro
Good lord, this discussion is 15 years too late. Its the same baloney that better, safer tools from Europe would never sell in America. Best practices are enhanced by well designed machines. The success of SawStop, Festool and other better quality products demonstrated that there was a market for those products.
Stuart
European tools dosell here; I have never heard any “they would never sell in America arguments.” Certain tools cannot be sold here due to different safety guidelines, such as the combination miter saw and table saw devices. Not meeting OSHA regulations would essentially bar the tools from US jobsites.
John B.
If I had room for a full size saw, it would be a sawstop. Unfortunately, in my garage, everything has to be bench top or roll under cabinets, so for now, I’m staying with my Bosch.
However, my grandson has shown and interest in learning to do wood working, and while I will teach table saw safety, I will buy a sawstop.
I retire next year and will build a dedicated shop to accommodate permanent tools.
TJ
When you see first-hand the grim mess a table saw blade can make in an instant to soft pink flesh, some of the objections to SawStop melt away. A neighbor with decades experience left 3 fingers on his shop floor not long ago. I do wish, though, they would make the technology more available to other manufacturers. As for the complacency issue, the same arguments could be made for helmets, life jackets, seat belts and air bags.
Brett Mangiarelli
Sawstop is just a safer saw its well thought out, well made and smartly designed
You can’t fault Sawstop ror protecting they’re patt
I work in the entertainment industry
(Set carpenter) & Sawstop is being required in more & more studos
I have a good table saw but am going to get a sawstop for my next project
I had an accident on a table saw & had to have 2 fingers reattached
So whatever the case I will be changing my table saw to Sawstop asap
Terry T
In college in the late 1980s, my work study job was in the theater. I had been using a table saw for years, with proper safety techniques drilled into my head by my father while using our vintage 1970s Sears contractor saw. I was probably the most experience and well versed user of power tools in a shop that was largely occupied by theater majors.
We had an old-school Rockwell Unisaw with nary a safety feature in site. I was ripping four boards and couldn’t find the push stick. I was on the last rip, the skinniest piece and realized it was going to be tight. I decided to “watch out for my fingers,” which I did. But I forgot about my thumb and nearly cut it off. Fortunately, my rehab was short and the surgery was minimal, but a millimeter or two here or there and I would have reverted to a lower form of hominid.
A co-worker (see above: theater major) passed out when he saw my bloody thumb. The boss of the shop saw him on the floor and asked in a panic, “What happened to Dan?” I answered, “I think he was overcome when he saw my thumb,” which of course set off a whole chain reaction of a drive by campus police to the hospital.
More than anything I felt really stupid. REALLY stupid, because I should have known better. The mistake was all mine. After some time, I also felt really lucky, which I definitely was. I still have a skinnier thumb on one hand with a nasty scar on it, and it has been almost 35 years.
I still have that Craftsman saw, which I have upgraded quite a bit, with a zero-clearance insert, a good splitter, a far better fence, an easily accessible safety switch, a quality thin-kerf blade and more.
I don’t do as much woodworking as I would like, but I will definitely get a Saw Stop or something similar when the time comes. Sure, the guy who invented the technology is a schmuck, but $200 for a fresh blade and cartridge is nothing compared to the costs–financial, physical and emotional–of losing a digit. Practically speaking, it’s a great investment, and it’s also probably a far better table saw than my tuned-up Craftsman.
Like a motorcycle helmet or a seat belt, a Saw Stop saw would not have me letting my guard down.
Sam
I’m a hobby woodworker very invested in the hobby. I began with a Steel City table saw and upgraded to a SawStop when I found one on the used market for a very fair price. The plan was to always get a SawStop once my kiddos were of an age appropriate to use a table saw (still a few years off).
I like statistics and math and obsess over details. A lot of errors result from the system that we operate in. Before SawStop, I used a well thought out push block that lived permanently on my table saw fence. This system forced me to either move the push block out of the way or use it for the operation. This was a good habit and became second nature.
Now that I have a SawStop I do exactly the same thing. The push block was modified to fit the new fence and continues to work very well. I’m too conditioned to respect anything spinning at the speed of death as not a threat because of an invisible (unless activated) safety technology.
The saw itself is well built. I have a Contractor saw that bought used, had all the upgrades (cast iron extensions). I still want an ICS but overall the contractor saw performs very well and affords great precision with good power.
SawStop builds a quality saw with an industry exclusive safety technology. As a consumer that is the most important consideration. The company history, politics, and patent law really doesn’t interest me – neither does brand loyalty. All my interactions with the company are positive and after two years or regular use I’m satisfied with my saw.
Franco Calcagni
“I like statistics and math and obsess over details”…just as a side note, if you go to machinist forums, like Practical Machinists, they have a saying. Woodworkers obsess over 1/64 of an inch while machinists are always working with thousandths of an inch.
They have a couple of other digs at woodworkers also. (they think it is funny)
Like I mentioned in a previous post, I haven’t lost any part of my finger or had a bad cut due to a table saw (knock on wood!), nor do I know of anyone. I am surprised at the number of people writing in with having lost part of a finger or having reattached fingers; much more than I would have ever thought. And for the vast majority, I know it is not from doing something stupid but rather something you have done many times but an unfortunate moment of lost attention does it.
S Johnston
I just ran across your article about the Sawstop. I’ve been a shop teacher for 25 plus years. I have taught woodworking and other subjects as well. The High School world of woodworking has moved to these Sawstops at least in our state. I even see them exclusively at the SkillsUSA conventions.
My argument with my colleagues is this. For all my years as a woodworking instructor I have never had an accident on the table saw with students. Routers, once, and believe it or not hacksaws. I to think it’s a gimmick and not really necessary in a high school. However I’ve lost that argument. In the end our district is going to do what they can in the name of safety. And yes there is a litigation issue to think about and I understand where they are coming from. Furthermore, in the past 10 years or so that we have had a Sawstop in our shop a student has only tripped at once. And he paid for that that’s the agreement we have with students on the Sawstop
Picture this, 15 16 17 year olds on a table saw. What can go wrong? In my experience, with proper instruction and a watchful eye, not much.
As far as home use goes, not sure if the average woodworker can afford these. Price wise they are about the same as a non-Sawstop. But, you trip one you’re going to have to pay for it.
I have always wondered about table saw accidents in this country. I’m not sure how to go about finding that. If someone were to find that out, you might be able to contest this ‘marketing idea’ of a SawStop. I’m willing to bet that the number one reason for table saw accidents is removing the Blade guard/kickback protector which in turn causes accidents.
I talked to a doctor who interned in Tennessee. He said about a couple times a month he would see hand/finger injuries from dudes taking off guards on table saws.
Sorry about this length but I needed to say my peace..
Stuart
Unfortunately, many users do remove table saw blade guards. They grow accustomed to using a table saw without its blade guard – if they were not already – and then it only takes one mistake, misjudgement, or distraction to suffer permanent injury.
Accidents can still happen even with a blade guard in place, but it seems the chances of blade-contact injuries are greatly diminished.
Ross
Sometimes you need to take off the blade guard if you’re making a thin cut. On my SawStop I think it’s ~1″ or narrower I can’t do it with the blade guard on. I think the only time a riving knife is necessary to remove would be to make a cove cut. I ran my old table saw without the blade guard for a long time because to be honest, I was never taught how to properly use a table saw. I just bought a crappy Skil in my early 20’s because it was cheap and figured it out on my own (who reads manuals!?). I saw the blade guard as an obtrusive unnecessarily safe thing that prevented me from seeing my cut, and I didn’t need it because I paid attention to what I was doing. That, and the anti-kickback claw left marks in the soft wood I was using and I couldn’t have that. I did eventually grow up and take safety more seriously.
Those kids in your woodworking class are going to be the most compliant to safety when they’re in your classroom. The problem will happen when that watchful eye goes away. While that may not occur in your classroom where the SawStop is, without it you’re a split second away from losing your career because a kid made a mistake and their parents come after you. Regardless of how good of a teacher you are, if parents make it their mission to get a teacher ousted, it is likely to succeed.
FRED C
No thanks.
I neither need nor want their tech. I’m still (after 25+ years) too scared of my table saw to relax around it or take it for granted. Still have all 10 fingers.
No pawls or riving knife. Caution + common sense.
CharlesinRichmond
I love both my sawstops. Great saws. I’ve had one since 2007 or so.
Anyone who buys anything else is honestly nuts
JBo
I think the tech is great, the execution is poor. Bosch had a far superior system. I had the privilege of seeing a Bosch demo and it was great. The overall quality was meh, but the safety tech was better. I do think SawStop creators are the devil of the woodworking world. They tried to make their technology required on all tablesaws by government enforcement and failed thank God. Then when Bosch tries to expand the idea of safety they sue them out of the market in the US. So the idea is good but I will never buy one.
Paul
For me, its a moral issue. A company that specifically prevents a limb saving technology from wide adoption in the favor of higher profits, is immoral. Its the same thing a drug company withholding life saving drugs from poor(er) people. Drug companies now have programs to give away and provide reduced price drugs for poor people. They solved (most of) the moral issues. Sawstop has not.
I prefer not to business with immoral companies.
Franco Calcagni
I rambled on about this in a few posts, but to put it simply….what you said.
Alex B
Being complacent does not necessarily mean you are less adept at using a table saw . I have used a table saw for years and I did cut myself once . I was extremely lucky, I didn’t loose any fingers . . Knowing that the Saw Stop can prevent serious accidents from happening did not make me more complacent around using it , cutting yourself on a table saw is traumatizing and gross , I know . I don’t know anyone that uses this saw to be more relaxed around it because it possibly won’t cause serious harm . This table saw is expensive but so not as expensive as a trip to the emergency department