Should I buy a CNC router?
I have my eyes on a particular machine, not the one shown above – that’s a CNC pen plotter I photographed at a past Maker Faire – and am mulling things over. Again.
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On one hand, I have project ideas that will require machine-cut parts. On the other hand, it’ll take up space and require a bit of money.
There are a number of more affordable CNC routers and mills, but from what I’ve seen, they require extra time and effort to get things right. There are turn-key solutions, but with higher price tags.
I like to work in plastic, but a laser cutter is out of the question, due to cost, exhaust needs, and the limited ability of a laser cutter to work on anything but plastic and certain non-plastic materials of different sizes.
Years ago, I looked at CNC Router Parts, and they’ve evolved into making near-ready-use machines that look quite good. One of my favorite Makers seems to like his, furthering the idea in my mind.
I’ve looked at benchtop CNC routers over the years, and some brands have come and gone. There’s also ShopBot, but their tools are pricey and seemingly more aimed at educators and those looking to do production work. Did I mention pricey? Their desktop tool starts at around $7500, which is way outside my budget.
I have my small Taig mill, and I did buy CNC motor brackets – but none of the actual CNC-requiring parts – but it’s not going to be ideal. Its working volume is too small for the project ideas that I have on hold for lack of a way to build them. Maybe if a CNC router works out well for me, I’ll then convert my Taig for use on more three-dimensional plastic or metal fabrications.
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The reason I’m bringing this up, isn’t more because I want an answer, but because I want to see your questions and thoughts about the matter.
If I’m going to invest the money, time, and space for a CNC-anything, I need to know that it’ll have ToolGuyd benefits too. Otherwise it would be easier and simpler for me to outsource my part cutting, by sending it to an online fabrication store.
I am a big proponent of working with hand and power tools first. Too many people get the “I want a CNC” idea in their heads, without even thinking that they can do the same things with far less expensive tools.
This is an itch I’ve been meaning to scratch for some time. I can wait longer. In the meantime, I want to know what your CNC router needs or wants might be. Or, if you’re already using one, what are your thoughts?
Here’s my current wishlist:
- Ability to work wood, plastic, aluminum
- Small enough to be enclosed
- A spindle (instead of a router motor) is a big plus
- Ability to be controlled via USB port
- Small enough to fit on a small (custom-built) workbench
- Ability to add accessories, such as dust collection, air cooling, or cutting fluid
Chris
In a word yes !
Andrew Mitry
Have you looked at the Maslow CNC? I have one in order, excited to give it a try!
Stuart
I haven’t seen it, but looking at it now, it does look interesting. Outside the scope of what I would want a machine for, but it looks nice for working on larger plywood cutouts.
William
I’m pretty much a hobby woodworker, I’m interested in adding a CNC to my repertoire, but I would need to be small, well priced and idiot proof, I’m that that great when it comes to computers.
That’s where I’m at, the large and expensive units that you need to be a computer programmer to use hold no interest.
Eric
I got a Maslow from the Kickstarter campaign. I was not thrilled at first but the updates and the “ring” geometry have made it wonderful. I do not use it very much, but gears are turning about all the things I can do down the road. As my kids get a little bigger I see the utility flying up.
I see it as a complement to a horizontal bed 3 axis router (which I would not have the space or the money for).
Stuart
Well-priced and “idiot-proof” don’t often go hand in hand.
There’s a reason that new Makerbot device pricing skyrocketed when they started getting popular.
I’ve hesitated to get into CNC anything because I don’t want to make the machine my hobby, I want it as a tool that just works. I bought and returned a 3D printer once. It was hailed as being a fantastic model and it was a little over $500 or $600. I couldn’t get it to do a test print. After troubleshooting, trying different things with the recommended software, trying different things with other software, and consulting their techs, I returned it.
MT_Noob
What about a Shaper Origin. I’ve got one on order and I am counting the days until it arrives. I like the idea that it all just goes back into a systainer when I am done using it. There are trade offs’ compared to a a full CNC, but it might be the right solution depending on your exact needs.
https://shapertools.com/
MT_Noob
Oops, after looking at your wish list needs, it is clearly not what you need… Sorry, I should have read the whole post before commenting.
Scott J in Boston
+1 to the Shaper Origin. It’s a lot slower than using a gantry CNC, and it has other limitations as well. But it takes up negligible storage space, and you can use it to cut tiny things as well as entire 4×8′ sheets. If what you want to do is primarily cut one-off projects that are primarily 2.5D designs, it’s an excellent compromise. I’ve found a lot of unexpected uses for mine, like drilling (or marking centers) of hole patterns, cutting rectangular openings out of things, making wooden plugs and pockets of arbitrary size, and so on. I wasn’t expecting to be able to align cuts to pencil marks on my workpiece, but you can–and that perfectly suits a hybrid workflow with conventional tools. It’s also more fun to use than a proper CNC machine.
MT_Noob
Scott,
What software do you use to create your files? I am new to cnc/3d software and am not sure which one to start with. I’d like to know what you went with.
Scott J in Boston
I’ve used both Onshape and Fusion 360. F360 certainly has more features, but there are things about Onshape I sometimes prefer. It’s a matter of personal preference. It actually takes only 2D files, so you can use Illustrator or Inkscape too.
Stuart
I posted about it a while back – https://toolguyd.com/shaper-origin-handheld-cnc-router/ .
It looks interesting, but I am highly skeptical.
The ShopBot Handibot was announced 4-1/2 years ago. https://toolguyd.com/shopbot-handibot-kickstarter-preview/
I’ve seen it at Maker Faires, but I don’t know anyone that has actually bought or used one.
The biggest downside with the Shaper Origin and Handibot is that they’re designed for working on large materials.
Diplomatic Immunity
Well if you figure something out let us know. I would love to have a small cnc mill just to mess around with. Hell even a 3D printer would be cool. Love the idea of making obscure parts that I might need that I can’t buy.
fred
Maybe I’m too old-school but my take is that other stationary tools might want to come first for a woodworking home shop (assuming you have the space or can make stationary tools portable fro moving around).
In this order I’d ask:
Do you have a quality cabinet table saw?
Do you have a dust collection system?
Do you have a decent surface planer?
Do you have a 8 inch or larger jointer?
Do you have a quality router table?
Do you have a quality woodworking bench for assembly plus tasks like hand planning and chisel and gouge work?
Do you have a 14 inch or larger band saw?
Do you have a drill press?
Do you have a mortising machine or domino machine?
How about adding a woodworking lathe?
How about a stationary compressor?
fred
I did not add a sliding compound miter saw – a nice addition – but more essential for carpentry work IMO.
Stuart
Table Saw: Not yet. Long story.
Dust Collection: I keep searching, but I can’t find anything compact enough to not take up too much space, large and powerful enough that it’s worth the upgrade over my Festool dust collector, not too powerful so as to require its own 220V line.
Surface Planer: Not owned, but I have a Dewalt test sample I’ve been exercising.
Jointer: No, and I’m hesitant. No benchtop model won me over year, and full-size ones seem to have mixed reviews. I don’t have the space for one just yet, either.
Quality Router Table: Yes! Bought it last year, need more space to use it well.
Quality woodworking bench: Not yet.
Large Band Saw: No, and I haven’t considered it. I’d sooner get a metal-cutting saw, but no space at the moment.
Drill Press: Yes! Bought a Nova.
Domino: Yes, a test sample. I also have several doweling jigs.
Woodworking lathe: Yes, a test sample. Also my small Sherline. A metal lathe is on my list of things to buy if/when I can figure out where to put it.
Compressor: I’ve been back and forth on this, but I don’t think I would use a stationary compressor enough to justify the cost or footprint.
Miter Saw: There are so many samples I need to test that I’ve started turning them down, and I also donated my personal miter saw to clear up shelf space.
The thing is, I’m not looking at CNC routers with woodworking in mind. I want to build robot and RC parts, cut out and etch custom control panels, and create other precise shapes and parts that are too time-consuming to do my hand as nicely.
fred
Just a thought.
My home shop is wired with multiple 220V lines to feed the stationary machines – with one of the old beasts that I have (the radial arm drill press) converted/re-motored from 440V.
Stuart
I have a single 220V, but can add more the subpanel. But the question is where?
I still don’t have a fixed layout, and it’s unlikely for any fixed layout to be very permanent.
fred
When I moved in – I upgraded from a 200A to 400A service and converted most of a 2400 sq ft basement into a shop. The overflow – is now in what used to be a 3 car garage. My dust collection system is housed in an attached outside shed at the back of the house. If I had to do it over, I would have built a separate shop building on the property – assuming I could get the permits.
Benjamen
I own a CNC, but it sits around collecting dust. Here are a few reasons:
1) Software can make or break the experience. Good software costs money. Intelligent software that produces good g-code can make a 30 minute carve into a 10 minute carve. I remember watching the CNC wondering: “why the heck is it carving it that way, that’s stupid?”
2) More software: If you want to do V-carving that usually costs extra. We’re talking $100s of dollars. There’s kludgy ways of doing it cheaper, but they take more time.
3) Noise: Routers are loud. Now run one for an hour straight. I thought I could just work in my shop while the CNC was running, but it’s hard to concentrate because I’m either watching it or listening to it.
4) Mess: They can be messy even if you have good dust collection. Cutting metal? now you can’t use the same system you did for wood and plastic.
5) Bit changing: if you want a detailed carve, you have to use a small bit, but a small bit takes forever. So you need to be able to change bits in the middle of a carve.
6) I can’t stress software enough. It really makes or breaks the experience.
Don’t get me wrong CNC is a great technology,but you have to put way more thought into it or spend way more money that you expected.
Jotham McMillan
Stuart,
I would say unless you have a lot of interest and/or production needs, I would skip it for the moment.
I make my parts for the RaptorLoc stuff on a Carbide 3D Shapeoko 3 XXL and I’m starting to hit the limits of the machine. Depending on a couple of variables, I will likely upgrade to a CNCRouterParts machine this year.
There are a couple of areas that really suck up your time. One is software, I exclusively use Fusion 360 and while free, it cost me in terms of time to learn. It’s a real art form with lots of iterations to get a part the way you want it. For just a few pieces, it’s probably better to hand it off to someone else who works with it regularly.
The other challenge is workholding. Even if you can model it, actually machining it well and not destroying bits by crashing into clamps, can take some time. Every time I make a stupid mistake, it costs me a minimum of a $25 bit, I’d be really bummed if I took out my $130 custom tap. Process is your friend but is yet another thing to learn.
For pure turn-key work, I think the Carbide 3D Nomad is one of the easiest to get stuff done but it has a small work envelope (roughly 8”x8”) and minimal power. It’s what I started with and might be able to do the parts you’re envisioning.
I really enjoy the power of the CNC Routers so for me, the large investment of time and money is worth it. But if I was just trying to get something prototyped, it’s far easier to hand an experienced machinist a sketchup file and work with them on it.
good luck!
Jotham
P.S. I should add that for project prototypes, I find Eric Strebel to have a brilliant way of using fairly common tools and materials to make prototypes.
https://www.youtube.com/user/lunakov
Charles
There are (3) options that I can see for most people. Two of those are small “consumer” machines -Shaper and an X-Carve and the third option is to looking into the local maker spaces (if there are any) which would allow access to much more professional equipment for the cost of your monthly membership.
Nathan
unless I was going to make signs for people or do something that required the use alot I’d probably farm out my intricate accurate need stuff.
There are online machine shops now that ill make things for you off provided drawing and ship it to you. Now I’ve used this for metal bits but some will do wood or plastics too.
I don’t have the consistent use cases to buy into something. Thought I might make my own some day as a test.
dandLyons
Very interesting article/discussion. I have been curious about CNC routers. I think the Shaper is an interesting concept but am also skeptical. I started down the path of comparing various products and price points with the idea of buying something some day. I have to be careful because in a weak moment, I can pretty much rationalize any tool purchase.
So I decided to take a different approach. First, I started keeping a list of potential CNC and/or laser cutter projects/ideas just to try and gauge my actual or potential need. Then I joined a local Maker Space (as Charles suggests). They have a couple of laser cutters & a couple of CNC routers. I am just getting started but the hands-on experience without the expense of ownership is the perfect entry point for me. One of the laser cutters is a custom built from scratch device. I am really interested to see what design decisions went into that project. The maker space here is only $35 per month.
Stuart
If there were a MakerSpace near me, I’d probably do that instead. I’d save money and space!
But there isn’t.
The big dilemma for me is finding a balance between affordability, capabilities, and ease of use. If I had to pick two out of three, it would be the latter two.
There are some semi-affordable good-looking options, but it looks like I would have to jump up to above $1500.
If I’m not careful, my rational turns towards “but think of all the ToolGuyd content this would help me do.” That has turned a couple of tool “wants” into “needs” before.
Benjamen
Wow, that’s cheap. The maker spaces around me are $200 a month. There is a hack factory I could join for $55 a month, but it isn’t very conveniently located to me.
Kurt H.
Having built two CNC machines (one that I designed myself) I would totally go with the CNC router parts machine. My next machine will definitely be one of theirs. The price is unbeatable for a production level machine, and the flexibility is really nice. Also I would buy more machine than you think you will need; no matter what you get you will outgrow it faster than you think.
At this point I wish I had just gotten a 4×8 setup outright. Shopbot is WAY overpriced for what you get, and most of the others are just gimmicky machines for making drink coasters and trinkets.
The real “gotcha” with CNC which has enormous impact on your experiences and performance however, is the CAM software and the tooling. Good tooling costs quite a lot, good CAM software costs even more.
There are lots of free CAM packages which will get you going however, these will never match the output level and performance you will achieve through a higher performance software package. Going from a free setup to professional level software is like having a whole new machine, it is crazy. I would factor this into your decision process in a real heavy way, it will pay big dividends. Also the modeling software being used is a big deal – spend good homework time on this! Understand your needs and expectations with respect to the software – you will absolutely get what you pay for here!
Ultimately it all comes down to workflow, there are lots of ways to do anything, CNC is just one of them. A buddy of mine who plays his CNC like a violin uses it when other tools would suffice but it is just his workflow. He uses it a lot to make precision jig setups for steel fabrication – he makes some really complex stuff. I think this is really where the CNC shines, combining the digital with the analog. Just my .2 cents though.
Jotham McMillan
Kurt,
If you’re talking engraving packages like VCarve then yeah, I would say you get what you pay for. However, as far as I can tell, Fusion 360 is absolutely viable for production work and good quality CAM output. Channels like John Grimsmo and NYC CNC seem to get lots of stuff done at high quality with that kinda-free package . There is certainly a learning curve with it however.
That said, I’m far from an expert on this stuff, just a home enthusiast.
Kurt H
Yeah that is a fair point, Fusion 360 has come quite a long way and I must admit I haven’t used it very much since it’s earlier days when it wasn’t much to write home about. I agree, as you pointed out, there needs to be a distinction between the hobbyist level CAM setups and the more full-featured production level CAM. In this context I think my point still stands but with caveat. Good software. Good software. Good software! it can be free or cheap but by all means get good software!!!
The other thing to this software problem is the modeling software, price for quality CAM packages has been declining (and free in some cases) however, cost for good modeling setups like Rhino or Solidworks has not. Depending on the type of work one is looking to get into things like sketchup (which I have heard is moving to a web app for its free version) may just not cut it.
Rock Hound - (J.Sutter)
I have been really interested in the X-Carve (https://www.inventables.com/technologies/x-carve). I really like that it uses a Dewalt palm router. I have been trying to get some grant money to buy one for my classes for a little while now. Seems like a nifty set-up.
Rocky
Stuart,
I have been thinking about buying a CNC router or laser cutter as well. I enjoy the thought of machining and the interaction of computers and making parts. the two choices I found for laser cutters was the boss laser (https://www.bosslaser.com/) or the DIY option of a lasersour (http://www.lasersaur.com/). as you mentioned, I am afraid of limitations. For a CNC router, I enjoy CNC router parts equipment. tested.com recently did a video with them where they split a 4×8 machine into a wood cnc and plasma cutter. before I make a purchase this big I have been asking myself the following questions.
1. Am I going to use this enough to get my return on investment? are buying this to save time, money, or are you just curious about CNC?
2. What size do I really need. I think the bigger the machine the more versatile and more use you would find out of it and therefor be more of a justification.
3. you mentioned aluminum, Have you looked at used bridgeport or a tourmac? from your needs list have you considered. The cost is higher but “buy once, cry once”.
Enjoy your website and look forward to a followup about where you went after reading these. also how about an updated shop tour or some photos?
Stuart
There’s also Full Spectrum Laser. I believe that the new Dremel laser is based on the FSL Muse design.
But you need good exhaust or a pricy filtration system.
The local high school that I have been donating tools to has a laser cutters and expressed that I can use it as long as I provide my own material. I might just take them up on that offer.
But with a CNC router, I can test a design and then send the file to an online cutter for a bigger batch or nicer finish.
1) Would I get a lot of use out of it? I’d hope so. A full return on my investment? Possibly not.
But there’s also the question of ToolGuyd content potential. With a machine, I can answer all sorts of questions I have that others might be eager to see answered.
And there have been personal projects I couldn’t pursue or finish because I couldn’t fabricate something as quickly or easily as needed.
2) I don’t see myself using material larger than 24″ x 24″. I think that things will be a lot easier if I stay within 2′ x 2′, rather than going to 2′ x 3′ or 2′ x 4′.
If things work out, I could always seek to build or buy a larger machine. But I hesitate to buy bigger than I can foresee needing.
3. A Tormach, while smaller than a Bridgeport, is still large, expensive, and likely immobile.
I’d sooner convert my Taig to CNC. But if going the metalworking machine route, I’d buy a manual mini mill that’s more capable than my Taig before I go the full-on CNC route.
Shop Tour: We’ll see? I’m still working on setting things up. Sorting through things has been very slow. That’s why things have been slow on the site this week, and might be next week too – I’m trying to get everything to a fully productive state, and it requires a lot of grunt work.
Jim Felt
Maybe hire a high school kid from one of your donation receipt schools. Cash of course.
Ask the shop teacher to pick a couple of his best juniors and/or seniors to interview with you.
Can’t hurt to try
Stuart
Someone else recently suggested the same. The liability off working with a minor is unacceptably high.
Paul
I spent a lil bit looking over available options and sacrificed a little in order to keep it cost effective.
X Carve package with their X controller.
Pickup the Makita router (lower spindle speed) instead of the Dewalt unit.
Fusion 360 for all your CAD/CAM needs (free and powerful, lots of YouTube info)
UGS or PicSender to post Gcode and manual control
Here’s a very good breakdown of the X-Carve for someone unfamiliar;
https://sites.google.com/view/x-carve-noob-essentials
This will get you up and running for a very little. It will allow you to learn a bunch and check a lot of the boxes you mentioned. Sure there’s more powerful setups out there but you may get some features you never use and you’ll be paying accordingly. It’s good to get your feet wet and establish what exactly you enjoy or need and either upgrade or move onto a new machine entirely.
Stuart
X-Carve wanted to send one over, but I didn’t have space to test it out. When I finally had the space, they had stopped sending out samples.
What I’ve heard from a number of users is that the X-Carve takes some fiddling at times. That got me looking more at the Shapeoko again. But really, both machines are a step lower than suited for my needs and wants. I want something more powerful, rigid, and flexible.
I’m afraid that ~$1000+ for an X-Carve or similar for me, when an X-Carve isn’t the goal, would be $1000+ I could put into a machine better suited to what I have in mind, from the start.
There’s a 300W spindle available for the X-Carve, with ER11 collet. There’s a 2.2kW spindle available for the CNC Router Parts machine, with ER20 collet. It does cost a whole lot more, though.
I had always wanted to get a K2 CNC router, but the machines were priced above my budget. Last time I looked into the company, they were simply gone.
Paul
X-Carve is really straightforward if you buy the whole package and don’t stray off the bat. I had my stock setup up and running in under 5 hours while watching a movie.
Most the issues I have seen on the X-Carve pertains to upgrading earlier versions, modifying the stock configuration, or very simple human errors (flipped wires).
~$1000 is the bottom dollar for something of reasonable hobby value. It is a small price to pay to see if this field is even something you wish to continue with. I know of a few individuals who go all in on nicer setups and they regret the whole deal. Typically it’s due to not having the time or didn’t account for some aspect of the process that puts them off. It’s one thing to read about each step and the work involved.
I picked up an X-Carve to learn on. I do CAD for work, but my CAM skill are seriously lacking. So in comes the X-Carve for a little fun and a lot of user experience. I would love a Brother Speedio, but it doesn’t make sense for myself right now. However, for a very small investment the X-Carve has been an eyeopener and useful tool. It may stay as a small parts dedicated router or move on in life as a laser or drag knife setup, but it will have fulfilled its task.
This maintains true for a shapeoko or anything else in the same price point. A starter setup to test the waters.
Kurt Greiner
You mentioned getting a metal cutting saw, but lacked the room. I just bought a Harbor Freight/Bauer hand held bandsaw, and after playing with it a bit, was really impressed. Cut through a 3/4 inch bar with no effort. I’ve got a Swag Industries base coming for it, and between the two will have a benchtop metal cutting saw with pretty impressive capacity for about 260.00 total (100 for the saw, 150 the base and 10 for electrical switch box and switch. Swag makes bases for other popular portable bandsaws if you have one. Watch some videos on YouTube to see more about these bandsaws used in stationary bases.
Can’rt help you much with CNC anything. I have a buddy who finally got his GlowForge, and loves it, another who does desktop CNC routing, and yet another who has a 3d Printer. They all seem like hobbies all by themselves.
If you have a Rockler store in the area, they carry a smaller CNC machine in the 4K range that is big enough for kitchen cabinet doors. One of these days, I need to watch a live demo at my store.
ktash
“I need to know that it’ll have ToolGuyd benefits too. Otherwise it would be easier and simpler for me to outsource my part cutting, by sending it to an online fabrication store.”
To address your question, Stuart, it would not interest me at this time. For a while I thought these were really interesting, but not a priority due to cost in both $ and learning curves. I use Sketchup all the time, but that’s about as high tech as I want to go. When I use Sketchup, to fill out an idea, it’s like I’m pre-building it. The technology is secondary. I crave the hands-on experience. I even like the challenge of fixing something that goes awry. That said, I’m mainly interested in woodworking, and probably in the minority of your readers. Mattias Wandel makes all kinds of machines out of wood. If I had the skill and space, I might like to make a pantorouter. This might not seem too different from a CNC, but it feels different to me.
On the other hand, I’m a sucker for gadgets, and the idea of one that fits in a systainer tweaked my interest again. 😀
JoeM
I’ve always seen CNC machines as a hindrance, personally. By the time you’ve got all you need for your particular monster, you have to be using it for making a lot of money (or already have lots of money to spare) in order for it to be useful. Otherwise it just sits there, collecting dust, and creating a giant hole in your budget where the cost of it used to be.
You need CAD/CAM Experience, Tool Experience, Idealized Location of all required resources the machine needs, Idealized materials for your model, and on top of all that you have to work in a field you can make money to pay it off with. If you don’t have all of these, a CNC is like dragging a palate of cinder blocks chained to your ankle everywhere.
Pretty much, unless you’re a comic book super villain, there is no civilian market for a proper CNC, only a hacked-together, self-built type using Arduino and Routers to construct it.
Tool Of The Trade
There’s several things that you should consider to help make your decision. You have a family, right?
How much time will you have to dedicate learning what the machine is & how to get it to do what you want it to do and learning the software? To figure out how to use it ain’t something that you learn overnight. How much will it cost for the machining accessories to work all the materials you mentioned? Materials for the enclosed workbench? Room in your garage or shop for it? Are you going to be machining on a regular basis or is it just going sit in the corner and collect dust?
How obtainable and how much do the materials you want cost that you want to machine? If you don’t have room for it, is it worth sacrificing tight space? You mentioned dust collection ventilation, cutting fluid, air cooling. There’s absolutely nothing small about that. Cutting fluid will require a drum & a pump if there’s not one built into the machine. Good cutting fluid ain’t cheap either. If you’re talking about a water jet, you’re talking big bucks. Quality air cooling & dust collection is going to be expensive as well. You said $7500 is way too expensive, well how much do you think all the the bells and whistles that you want are going to cost? There’s a whole lot more to it than you think. It’s not a power tool. It’s not a tool that you can use right out of the box that comes with a four page instruction manual . There’s a lot to know to use it correctly and effectively. Especially if you’re wanting to do complex machining. Either way you’re going to spend a shitload of money and time on it when it’s all said and done. These are just a few of the things that would run through my mind and it should certainly be something for you to think about.
Stuart
Very good pints all around, thank you.
Regarding cutting fluid, I’ve been messing to get a Fog Buster for my small mill. It’s a small device and reservoir that requires a medium sized compressor to run. The same compressor could potentially run a chilled air cooler instead.
I have used different 3D design packages in the past. Learning a new one is never fun, but is something upcoming work might require anyways.
But you’re right. An unused CNC can’t be moved too a storage shelf when not needed, the same way that one has to be sure they will use a table saw or other stationary machinery before they make the investment.
Frank D.
What will you actually make? In a series?
It sounds like you want to try a few different things on a CNC and answer questions about these systems, which would require trying and using SEVERAL of them, except they’re not plug and play, take plenty of time behind the computer, …
With all the other articles and guides on the back or middle burner and other toolguyd site needs … why invest in a complex system without clear goals of producing actual usable goods or actually making some money back?
With all the other mainstream regular shop tools and kit you have listed not to have yet … it does not seem like a priority purchase.
And as far as answering questions … that would be just one system.
PB
I concur with much of the above statements.
When I was in college the professors were always on the wall about letting the MEs CNC machine because we weren’t supposed to be machinists we were supposed to be engineers. I always find myself remembering this quite often.
It was important to know how, but with limited time, as everything is in this world, they made sure to never let it be worth an actual standalone course. The most it ever was credit for was senior project and that was certainly not anywhere close to a course dedicated to it.
Hopefully you find your direction.
Jim Felt
I’ve been thinking about your question/dilemma for a day or so and have an analogy for you (and myself as well).
No.
These “home” “hobbyist” units are very early stage devices.
Think digital cameras in the 1990’s. For thousands of dollars per megapixel. This iPhone has 12MP today.
Pre useful Photoshop let alone Lightroom. And with awful computers. And worse monitors.
“If” you want a new hobby learn AutoCad etc. and simply design whatever you want if it’s not already in a digital library and simply order it made in whatever material on what ever machine online.
So you’ve learned “how” to create but without the primitive early stage foundry learning curve.
And that’s exacly what I’m going to do. No way I want to relive the early 1990’s bleeding edge of digital “capture”. Let alone digital “making”.
But that’s just me.
Jim Felt
“Exacly”?! Exactly!
Oh. And I selfishly want Toolguyd to remain fixated on actual “tools”. Not programming. Pleeeaaasssee.
fred
Early adopters of new technology almost always pay a premium. When my son was born in 1977 – my wife heard about video. I bought a JVC VHS machine at Uncle Steve’s in Manhattan – think I paid around $1000 (big bucks in 1977) – blank tapes were $30ea. The big Video Camera (Camcorders had yet to be marketed) that I bought for it, along with some SV barn-door lights cost an even bigger bundle. A few years later it was all obsolete. The only thing I was able to salvage (sell) was the C-Mount Angenieux lens which held its value.
Stuart
None of this stuff is new, though.
I’ve been looking at CNC router designs for nearly 10 years. I did try a few tests at different times, to see if I could successfully make my own machine following online guides and project logs. What I found was that plastic wasn’t rigid enough, and that I didn’t have the tools to properly manufacture my own aluminum parts.
It’s not quite the same as say 3D Printing. 3D printers are definitely more mature than a few years ago, also. I personally have more use and desire for a CNC mill or router, though.
Charles
Went down this road a few years ago. I used to work for a defense contractor doing 3D drafting and CAM. Figured I could do it at home for things I wanted to save money. The reality is building a CNC is very easy, but parts are expensive and the more functionality you want the more time and money you have to invest. I want to build projects not build tools. Sold off all the CNC gear and outsource what will take too long to make.
Even turnkey CNC is needy in terms of tooling and resources. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Just be honest with yourself, do you want to spend your time playing with tools or do you want to accomplish the project.
Anthony
Inventables has the Carvey, which checks most of your marks.
Carbide3d also has the Nomad which is also a desktop CNC.
Both have the ability to V-Carve as well as pretty easy to use software to control the hardware, I prefer the Carvey over the Nomad due to the easier to use software.
Donny
I prefer a nice floor standing manual mill with xy DRO. My day job is working with computers and when I have a part that needs milling I prefer to do it manually. If it’s too complex to be done manually, then I figure out another way to do it.
Kevin
My thoughts are:
1. The CNC machine is easy to use. The software is not. Most people only see the cutting end, but want to ignore the CAD and CAM side of things. Anyone can hit a button to start a machine, but few can create and set up the files.
2. I see you want a smaller machine, but go big if you can. A small machine is always never large enough for what is needed. A friend bought a CNC Shark (nice machine at the time), but he spent way more than expected and only can work 15″x30″ at most. Most projects he later wanted to do ended up on my full sized 4’x8′ Shopbot.
3. Look for a used machine for a huge cost savings and you can see it function before buying.
Larry
I have a Full Spectrum laser cutter that I’ve found I use less often than I thought I would. I also started building a Shapeoko CNC router that I still haven’t gotten running. Luckily I have access to a maker space with several running CNC routers which may be why mine is gathering dust.
Bradley Hanstad
China makes way too good of machines for the price these days, I would end up with one of them if I was concerned about cost for hobby rather than production work.
Leonard
I own a CNC mill. I thought “This is going to be great.”
Now, it’s more like “What have I gotten myself into?”
There are so many things that I didn’t think about.
Setup time
Tooling
Fixtures
The mess. (Coolant, chips and the mix of that with sawdust)
Software (Someone already mentioned that.) But what about the maintenance fees and upgrading?
I spend more time programming than building.
Chad Brink
I build a large CNC router a few years ago. I don’t use it much. I’ve been woodworking for decades so most of the task I need I can do quickly the traditional way. I use the CNC for a few signs and other odd shapes but I could easily do without it. I did enjoy designing and building my own though. The software issues are another big commitment. I have been an Autocad drafter for 30 years and even with that background translating 2d and 3d cad into CNC files is a hastle. The last big thing I noticed is the CNC is slow. This goes back to my view that a fast good woodworker can outpace one-of types of projects more often. I don’t do the repetitive stuff enough.
Chad Brink
You can do fun stuff with a CNC though… my weirdest project. http://web.alliancecom.net/brenner/woodshop/Tools/wrench.jpg
Ed S
First: I just got your email on this posting..why so late?
Second: If you are SERIOUS on the CNC, you have to understand that 90% of the work is setup (software). And that is only after you have master it (like Fusion 360 and V-carve, which are the defacto…Autodesk is another but big CAD curve there).
Third: deep pockets. Its not just the initial CNC, but the bits, and wood (oh, you will go through materials in setup sampling…).
I am at a crux with buying a Shopbot. I’ve a good friend that is in the wood/maker business (think Remodeling/Historical Repro) and he told me, “yes, $$$$. But not a piece of junk like the rest”. And I need to learn it, so if gives me a skillset, and for hobby that I have client that can sell my work, allowing me to atleast break even.
Good luck.
Stuart
Are you only subscribed to once-a-week emails? They go out at Monday at 11am ET. You can update your subscription settings via the link at the bottom of all emails.
MikeD
Have you looked at the BOXZY unit.
It has 3 functions routing, lazer burning and 3D print, via changeable heads.
Work volume about 9x9x9 inches
Stuart
Will the company still be around in 5 years?
I see so many 3D printer and CNC startups, but how many will be successful companies? A machine that you cannot get parts for becomes an expensive paperweight.
jlabrasca
Hi Stuart –
>The thing is, I’m not looking at CNC routers with woodworking in mind. I want to >build robot and RC parts, cut out and etch custom control panels, and create
>other precise shapes and parts that are too time-consuming to do by hand as
>nicely.
I have a Shapeoko XL with Makita router, and I do CAD/CAM in Fusion 360These exceed my needs a hobbyist woodworker, modeler, and homeowner.
Precise, accurate, and repeatable is good.
Among other things, I build and fly free-flight model airplanes and high power rockets. In support of this I’ve used the Shapeoko to fabricate all kinds of components and fixtures from HDPE, plywood, balsa, aluminum, etc. I am starting to learn about mold making, so that I can lay-up fiberglass and carbon fiber parts in molds milled from machinable wax.
Much of its value to me, though, is that it is fun to use. Figuring out how to model and mill a replica of the housing for a surface-mount rotary light switch — to duplicate a piece found in my c. 1908 house — was really satisfying.
A tangible benefit of having the CNC — maybe — is management. The CAD/CAM work is as time consuming as any operation in the shop, but it can happen anywhere I have a computer. Work and family make if difficult for me to spend hours in the shop. Being able to set up the CAM from my office — during times when I can’t run power tools — then have the CNC running while I work at other stuff with other tools improves my productivity. Albeit, it makes me more productive at things I really don’t need to be doing.
FWIW, I didn’t plan to use it for woodworking projects, but I do. I am not a wood carver. No real interest in learning to carve by hand right now. The CNC made it easy(ish) to fabricate inlaid scales for a pocket knife, make handles for my Zona saws, to cut a scalloped checkerboard relief for the lid of a silverware case… lots of stuff like that.
@gfc62
Stuart,
I’ve built 3 CNC routers since 2007 and while I’m happy with the last one (built based on the design from JoesCNC.com) if I were to replace it it would be with a CNC Router Parts machine. Their machines are solid and they are good people to work with. Their spindle is pricy though. What’s your objection to starting with a router?
Several maker spaces I know have been happy with the ShopSabre machines, I think they may be providing aggressive pricing to ‘spaces. Their desktop machine is pretty pricy for what it provides.
Have you considered doing a CNC conversion of an X1 or X2 mini mill? I had a CNC converted X1 with the littlemachineshop.com long table kit. That was a nice small machine. It wasn’t too big to move off the bench when needed and had a work envelope of about 160mm x 360mm. Of course converting one of those does become its own hobby.
I’ve run a Shaper Origin and it’s not for me. I’m sure others will love it, but for me it combines many of the negative aspects of a computerized tool with most of the negatives of pushing a handheld router around.
Any way you can talk the school into getting a router? Maybe help them find one for a good price? If you don’t have a maker space nearby that might be a win for you and them.
As always, keep up the good work, I’ve been a fan for a long time.
Gordon
Stuart
Thanks!
Regarding getting away from woodworking routers, I’m hesitant about the noise and collet limitations. What happens when I want to use a 3/8″ end mill, or 3/16″ ball mill, or something outside of what typical woodworking routers can do. I’d work more with metal and plastic than wood.
My thoughts keep going all over the place. One thing I don’t want to do is convert a Sieg or Weiss machine. Those machines often require a little work (sometimes a lot) to be usable mills.
Last night I came across a video of a Taig will ballscrew. That might be an option. Maybe a Taig CNC with CNC Router Parts controller. The controller could move to a larger machine if/when I’m ready, and at that time I can tinker with building a new controller for the Taig, armed with some CNC experience with the plug and play CNC Router Parts unit.
The local high school has a good CNC router and a laser cutter, but I’d like to avoid asking to use their equipment if it can be avoided.
I’m at the point where I want to take the pleasure to make something manually, or to have a machine cut out something that I meticulously designed or am trying to perfect. I want to avoid adding “CNC or machine building and refining” on top of everything else I have to do.
I’ve been looking at benchtop mills and a new lathe, and it seems that every machine that comes out of China, even at higher price points, is essentially a “kit” that you have to improve, correct, and work on. Little Machine Shop has a $20 “tweaks and improvements” kit that they show as an accessory for brand new mini lathes.
I am waaaaaaaay away from the budget and maybe even the need for something like a Tormach. The CNC Router Parts benchtop machine looks to check a lot of my boxes, but it’s beyond my current budget. I looked at what the bottom line price would be and I changed my tune.
I looked at the Shapeoko Carbide, but it looks to be underpowered and limited. It has a turn-key appeal, but that’s it. A CNC-converted TAIG *might* check a lot of my “right now” boxes. It’s still a little machine, but might be within reach.
I find CNC Router Parts most appealing, when considering CNC routers, because it can work with all kinds of materials, and quite well from the looks of it. It would ideally handle the tasks that a laser cutter or CNC machine would be most suitable for, as well as being able to work with wood.
For now, I think I’ll continue to save up and keep educating myself, both about different classes of machines, and about myself. I like working with all material types, but I cannot have everything.
I’ll look into ShopSabre, but they look to be above my price point. They look to start at $7500.
Kevin
You should check out Millright CNC. They advertise themselves as being the best value in CNC, and they build great machines. One of the guys on their forum posted a video of him using their lowest priced model the M3 which hits the market at around $500 to successfully mill titanium.
I’ve got an M3, and can tell you it’s a great machine with great customer support. They’ve got a couple other models larger than the M3 also.
Plaingrain
What about working with photos? Are there certain cnc machines that copy photos with quality? Example: To engrave a photo on a personalized wooden box lid.