A press release about Milwaukee’s new M18 Fuel 7-1/4″ sliding miter saw just hit my inbox, and they’re (aptly) describing it as the industry’s lightest weight cordless miter saw.
“Well, not really” came to mind, as I pictured Stanley’s miter box and hand saw combo.
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So I thought I’d have a little fun.
Stanley’s miter box and saw combo is a quick, inexpensive, and easy-to-use solution for cutting wood at 90°, 45°, and 22.5°.
It comes with a 14″ hand saw, and 2 pegs to help keep your work against the fence. The saw’s spine has a stop to prevent you from cutting into the miter box.
It doesn’t require AC power – hence my description of it being “cordless” – or battery power.
Price: $15-19
Buy Now(via Home Depot)
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While we’re talking about miter boxes, has anyone ever used Nobex’s miter boxes? Lee Valley carries them in 3 styles – economical, standard, and professional, ranging from $55 to $195.
Is there a different miter box you’d recommend?
Mike47
Score!
Adabhael
I have an old cast-iron stanley miter box with bearing guides (a 358 IIRC) that belonged to grandfather and I would absolutely recommend it. It took a bit of restoration, but I find it easy to tune, dead-on accurate, and leaves a very smooth cut. I trimmed-out two bathroom renovations with that saw only, and love it for precise work or if I am working late and don’t want to make much noise. I was delighted to discover that the identical model is the illustration in the first edition of the Audels Carpenters and Builders Guide that belonged to my great grandfather. You can occasionally find them used on craigslist or ebay.
fred
My old Stanley 360) (85-306) is 18 inches long, has nearly a 14 inch wide came with their 39-124 30×6 inch backsaw. The backsaw rides in a carriage made of steel and plastic. It allows you to lock the saw in the up-position, can be adjusted to cut at various angles, and is pretty accurate. With so much surface area and weight of saw blade – no one would accuse it of “gliding through the work”.
The advantage of a Backsaw is in its stiffness – that comes at the expense of weight.
A bowsaw or hacksaw design – sort of equivalent to what the Nobex does – holds the blade at both ends and puts it in tension to achieve stiffness. The blade can be thinner and not as high – reducing weight and cutting friction/effort. Stanley sells a cheapie version #20-800 ($40 at Walmart). CRL markets an upgraded version (#H36191) that sells for around $100. The one from Garrett-Wade is no longer available. The Ulmia #352 ($745 with shipping on Amazon) could never be called cheap.
If looking to shop around for a Nobex – Best Things (www.thebestthings.com) seems to carry a full array of the boxes, blades etc.
Blythe M
I don’t know if they make different grades of this kit, but I bought a Stanley one last year that was green and didn’t have the peg holes. The saw was one of the most horrific tools I’ve ever used, couldn’t even cut pine trim brand new
Andrew
So I’ve tried someone’s HF (Or some other brand) knock-off hand saw miter box and had a hell of a time starting a straight cut on it. The tolerances on the box itself were wide, and I’m guessing the blade just wasn’t very sharp, but are there any affordable hand saw miter combos that are actually worth owning and less than $50-$75?
I do remember my old high school shop had one really big one setup on a big table and had a counterweight on the end to help stabilize the stroke. While I didn’t mind working on that type of miter saw, it was extremely large and didn’t exactly make a good comparison to corded miter saws that would fill the same footprint.
BikerDad
Zona makes smaller, lighter, and better miter boxes. They won’t, however, cut a 2×4. You’ll find them at your local hobby shop.
fred
There are other small – hobby miter boxes to look at as well:
The Midwest #1135, Excel #55665 and Xacto #X75320 come to mind. I have an older Xacto X75360. Micromark sells their #15215 that holds its backsaw captive and can be set for various angles.
http://www.micromark.com/mini-hand-tools/saws-miter-boxes
Another small miter box is worth a mention. Made by Crain (The carpet/flooring tool company) their #176 is made for use with a hacksaw. Its purpose is for cutting metal trim strips and small shapes by hand – instead of using a shears.
http://www.craintools.com/other/mitering-tools/176
For mitering wood trim there are many different dedicated pliers-type tools like the Knipex 94 35 215 or Kraft LA355.
The big-daddy for shear-type miter trimmers was the Lion Trimmer. There are quite a number of newer copies – like the Grizzly G1690 and Rockler 26477,
John Blair
I like it. In that same vein, it is also less expensive than Bridge City Tool Works’ Joint Maker Pro. At $1435, it is a great choice as no batteries ever need charging and it can be used where noise ordinances are strict. http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/tools/jointmaker/jointmakers/jmpv2-jointmaker-pro.html
John S
I was just about to post that hah. Its the perfect apartment table saw perfectly silent!
https://youtu.be/3ruwZdaPjbs
Fritz
I’ve used a Nobex miter saw for years to make picture frames. Great tool.
mattd
I find it funny that they say that 28lbs is the lightest weight pro saw, completely ignoring their own Ridgid 7 1/4″ slider at 24 lbs. Is TTI admitting that they don’t think Ridgid are professional quality tools despite all of their marketing material that says otherwise? Also the Ridgid is dual bevel so their claim to be the only one in that category is odd as well. Finally if you can still find it in stores, forgotten in their overheads, the Ridgid is clearanced for only $179 for the saw+ a 5AH battery.
jtr165
Are Rigid tools really advertised as ‘pro’ tools? Seriously asking, I’m not really up to speed on what the actual tool brands, or their corporate umbrellas, refer to themselves as.
It seems TTI runs into this the most often. Pretty much anything Milwaukee is referred to as the ‘best’ option available for a specific tool, accessory, blade, bit, etc., when each of their ‘underlings’ offer a competing product.
I guess that has merit, though, as TTI is one of the few that has DIY on up brands that are all actually really good. SB&D doesn’t have that; actual Black and Decker equipment is alarmingly bad/cheap…stanley makes world class hand planes, and pretty much nothing else competing with other in-corp products other than some hammers and tape measures…and Dewalt seems to butter their bread overall. Bosch doesn’t have the ‘best’ saw blades, they keep those within Freud. Freud doesn’t offer the ‘best’ masonry bits, Bosch offers those.
I know overall it’s not that simple, and we’re leaving out just how independently some of these brands operate other than close eye(s) on red/black ink…but TTI often seems to actively have brands almost cannibalizing other internal products…just seems weird in a business sense.
Chris
I honestly question if the Milwaukee is just an exact (or very close) copy of the Ridgid.
Its interesting that the Rigid was, in the past few months, clearanced out of all HD stores. I managed to get the last one in my area.
Then the Milwaukee is announced and a lot of it looks the same as the Ridgid. But as you pointed out, the Ridgid is actually lighter than the Milwaukee is expected to be.
I really like the Ridgid version….$169 with the battery and charger cant be beat, and its a good tool to boot. Compared to the DeWalt it has a couple advantages (dual bevel, I dont think the DeWalt is brushless, and wasnt sure about the fence on the DeWalt….could have just been the display model at my HD being broken), but it all adds up to being pretty darn close to what we know about the upcoming Milwaukee. I did see someone post that the Milwaukee is 5000RPM and not 3750RPM like the Ridgid….that could be a big deal if its really true.
jtr165
You are correct; currently there is no brushless 20v Dewalt miter saw. The current model is brushed. I’ve been happy with mine for 2 years, though. Even being brushed, its run time has never been close to an issue. The fence isn’t adjustable, but not sure what you saw as far as a ‘problem’ with it, as that most likely was some kind of defect or damage on the display unit.
There have been rumors of a 20v ‘XR’ version of it coming at some point, but never read up on the blade size or any other changes. Also rumors of a 60v (as in a single FV battery) smaller-than-their-12″ miters (where they quietly released a non sliding version of the 120v 12″ this summer).
Anyway, I never got a chance to see the Ridgid up close, my local HD never had any on display that I remember. The Dewalt was were I finally doubled down on the 20v platform (bought some of the OPE specifically for the big batteries)…had the Ridgid been available at that time, I may’ve become a split platform guy, as I want a lot of their tools (cordless trim router, ROS, etc.)
Stuart
Many Milwaukee sources have said NO, regarding collaboration with other TTI brands, and with answers that are beyond doubt unscripted and honest.
Maybe some market information and data are shared at the highest levels.
From what I’ve been told, the designs and engineering are independent.
fred
I’m surprised that no one came out with an updated cordless version of the Bosch fine cut saw:
https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-1640VSK-Fine-Finishing-Miter/dp/B0000223FQ
Maybe it was a dud as far as sales went.
OnTheWeb
I totally trimmed out an entire kitchen with a lesser miter box than pictured. Necessity always rules.
fred
For generations the “necessity” of earning a living drove would-be cabinet/furniture makers to apprentice themselves to a master, learn the trade, practice it, and then if they had the talent – go on to make fine examples of their craft. Miters were cut by hand with home made miter boxes and then tuned-up with a plane and a shooting board. Miters on many pieces of good 300 year furniture are precise and still tight.
This and your example should remind us that modern miter boxes, miter saws and beautiful tools from Bridge City may increase our productivity or give us satisfaction in other ways. They are not, however, necessary or even sufficient to doing good work. I persuaded to believe that lots of tools are bought by folks (ToolGuyd readers of course excepted) who think they may be a substitute for acquiring the skills with which they are associated. Buying the best miter saw does not necessarily make you a better carpenter or woodworker. Worse yet, as we may glean from some of the discussion on table saw safety, some folks may buy tools and not put in the time and effort to learn how to use them safely.
Stuart
While tools might not substitute for practice and skill, higher quality tools can help and lower quality tools can hurt.
My first hand planes were cheap from the hardware store. They slowed down my skill-building projects dramatically and were a huge headache. I stepped up to Veritas once I could afford to do so, and there’s a world of difference. Having a tool that’s ready or nearly ready to use is a far different experience than struggling to flatten, sharpen, and true tools designed around the cheapest price point possible.
I’ve found that a lot of people think better tools will yield better results, better cookware will yield tastier dinners, and better cameras will result in better photos.
If the tools and gear matches up with the skill, capabilities, or talent of a user, then yes, they can boost or enhance one’s abilities in a complementary way.
But I’ve also seen users struggle with pricier tools, cookware, or cameras, because they thought the improvement would be automatic when it’s not.
glenn
True. I still have a an old Stanley plastic mitre box that I bought about 35+ years ago and I built a lot off furniture with it and fitted out a few garages with benches and shelves. It certainly saved me a lot of money but more importantly helped me pick up a few skills on the way.
But now that I am older and probably lazier, I love my cordless tools including my old Ryobi MS181 mitre saw. Sure it isn’t the fastest nor the most powerful, but after setting it up, it is accurate enough and gets the job done.
fred
I think Stuart makes some good points. A really bad tool will never produce good work – I’m thinking about something like a square that is out of square and isn’t amenable to being adjusted.
His example about a hardware store planes is also instructive. There was a time (1950’s) when you could buy such a plane (probably a low-end Stanley or Buck Brothers) and tune it up to do decent work. On some cheap planes now, the sole is not flat nor square to the sides. The blade is not flat nor is the cutting edge ground correctly – let alone honed. The castings for the frog, throat and chip breaker may be so bad as to make filing or grinding them down a tedious or well nigh impossible task. The adjuster may also need work – or backlash be so bad that you give up.
What’s just as interesting is that learning from this sort of experience is a good step in knowing what limitations might be imposed by your tools. Once this is known – you can then judge where stepping up to something better will really help. I’ve always thought to buy the best tools I could afford within reason at the time of purchase. Some of this was a real stretch (my Unisaw comes to mind) some of which was worth it. So today I could afford to change out my sliding table Unisaw for a Minimax or Hammer. I might think about it for safety – but not because I have stretched the limits of the Unisaw’s capabilities and need to step up.
Your example of the camera is perhaps easier to understand. If you own a good camera – maybe something like a Canon G series – and you are not able to take good pictures with it – then just stepping up to the top-end DSLR will probably not help. But if you take good pictures with your current camera and want the added features of something else – then go for it.
Stuart
This is a hard topic to discuss because there’s no right answer, and because the same generalizations might be true or false depending on who’s saying it.
Similar generalizations can apply to lots of different areas.
With tools, perspectives get messy because different users have different needs and wants.
Snap-on tools might be a luxury and status symbol for some weekend warriors, a necessity for many professionals.
There is no escaping the need for knowledge, skill, and experience.
But sometimes certain tools can provide shortcuts to better results, or make it easier to gain the skills necessary for better results.
Take turning tools with replaceable cutters. They offer a way to circumvent having to grind and hone one-piece turning tools. That allows newcomers to focus on wood or metal turning without having to first work on auxiliary skills. In time, many turners might still develop those cutting tool shaping, sharpening, and honing skills.
As you said, it’s good for woodworkers to know how to correct their planes.
Personally, I’m okay with maintaining tools, but I find it extremely frustrating when I have to fix a new tool right out of the box. I’ll sometimes spend more on better tools to avoid that.
fred
As you say it is indeed a complex topic – with many chicken and egg conundrums.
One thing is for sure from my perspective is that its good that we have the ability to buy new quality woodworking hand tools. Many of us older guys were witness to a strange decline in quality – probably starting some time in the 1960’s. It did not have to do with a move to offshore manufacturing. The rise of China as a manufacturing giant – was still many years off. Japan was apparently producing good (but not western style) woodworking tools for their home market. But in the US and Britain – there was a marked decline in quality. Stanley and Record planes went from fine tools – to barely passable. Disston saws were now designed for sale in the bargain basement. Stanley 750 chisels disappeared from the market – replaced by plastic handled utilitarian models. And one after one familiar USA-made or Made-in-England woodworking tools either disappeared or were replaced by inferior versions. Maybe the mass market for woodworking tools had declined as power tools and automation took hold – but hobbyists were certainly still very much alive and the DIY movement was in full swing. Rockwell Porter Cable was still churning out new small power tools aimed at woodworkers – so maybe it was the thought that hand tools had become passé.
Then there seemed to be a turnaround – mostly by small makers like Lie Nielsen and marketers like Garrett-Wade – showing others that there was still profit to be made in producing quality tools. Thankfully the turnaround seems to have stuck. Lee-Valley-Veritas is producing great planes (and much more) in Canada to compete with Lie Nielsen and others in the US. Ashley Isles, Ray Isles and others in Britain are producing quality chisels and planes once again. There is a continuing interest in well made traditional Japanese style woodworking tools. Globalization and the Internet seem to have made more quality European tools available to us – with new makers like Narex (Czech) adding to others from France (like Auriou), Germany and Switzerland. And even Stanley – has tried to reintroduce some of their Sweetheart line.
Pete
Wouldnt ryobi’s 7-1/4″ cordless miter saw be the “industry’s lightest weight cordless miter saw”?
Just a thought….
glenn
You beat me to it. Also don’t forget they had an 8-1/4″ 18v mitre saw previous to the current one and that was introduced 10 or so years ago.
glenn
There is the Makita LS600 6=1/2 mitre saw that’s just been released in Japan that weighs in at 5.2kg including battery and it really is tiny.
https://www.makita.co.jp/product/category/setudan/ls600drg/ls600drg.html
glenn
Meant 6.2kg
Jimmie
When I moved into my first house, I immediately had to deal with rotting wood around the front and back doors. As a new homeowner, the only tools I had were just the necessities and manual aside from a drill. I bought a miter box like the one pictured and a Stanley No 2 plane (or maybe it’s No 3…) and set to work. After a lot of trial and error, the wood was replaced and it’s still in good shape 20 years later. I don’t have the miter box anymore but I still have the backsaw and the plane.