What’s your take on brushed motor cordless power tools today? Do you even look at cordless tools that aren’t engineered with brushless motors?
Shown above is a brushless motor from one of Dewalt’s 20V Max premium 3-speed cordless hammer drill. I toured one of Dewalt’s then-new converted manufacturing and assembly facilities back in 2015, and a lot has happened since then.
Brushless tools are commonplace today, and even inexpensive.
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I recently posted about the new Milwaukee M18 cordless finish sander, and some readers had particularly harsh words about it.
Basically, a lot of end users are automatically dismissing the new M18 sander, just because it’s not part of the M18 Fuel lineup, and because it presumably has a brushed and not brushless motor.
I asked Milwaukee to clarify the type of motor, but have not yet heard back.
A different brand came out with a new cordless power tool a couple of months ago, and while it was not advertised as a brushless tool, and didn’t have any obvious markings, I later learned it was engineered with a brushless motor.
To me, this suggested that brushless tech had become so ubiquitous that it sometimes isn’t even emphasized as a feature.
But, should all cordless power tools feature brushless motors?
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On one hand, brushed motors are less expensive. They’re also simpler. On the other hand, brushless motors offer greater efficiency, which usually means more power for the size, longer runtime, or a combination of these factors. Also, heavily used brushless tools will never need replacement brushes.
When talking about core tools, brushed motors are usually a cost-cutting measure. Premium drills, circular saws, reciprocating saws, angle grinders, blowers, vacuums, and other such tools should have brushless motors.
That’s not to say that brushed motor tools aren’t good, because they can be, but brushless motors generally make such tools perform better and last longer.
But what about something like a 1/4 sheet finish sander?
When talking about circular saws, brushed saws often max-out with a 6-1/2″ blade size, and brushless saws go to 7-1/4″ and beyond.
But what’s compromised here, with this finish sander?
Assuming it has a brushed motor, would a brushless motor make this better?
If it were designed as a brushless motor, would there be any compromises there? Would the difference in price be more than it would cost to get an extra compact battery?
It’s okay to be critical of tools, but automatically rejection seems harsh.
Would you rather have a brushless drill or a brushed one? What if the brushless drill was Greenworks’ weak 24V model, and the brushed was an older Dewalt, Milwaukee, Makita, Bosch, or Metabo?
We’re at a point where *brushless* can be a feature or flashy marketing.
When the cordless power tool industry moved to Li-ion battery tech, it wasn’t long before there were no reasons to buy NiCad or NiMH tools anymore.
The same isn’t yet true for brushed vs. brushless motor tech.
Does the new Milwaukee M12 cable stapler have a brushless motor? Is that important?
Dewalt’s 20V Max 7-1/4″ cordless miter saw came out 7 years ago. Has a brushless upgrade been necessary?
Milwaukee’s M18 5″ ROS came out 4 years ago, and it was said to be capable of lasting up to 35 minutes with an XC 3.0Ah battery. The sander is well-regarded. So what’s there to worry about with the new 1/4 sheet finish sander?
Back then, I said in my post:
I wonder what the runtime specs look like, and why this isn’t boasting a brushless motor. I’m thinking that maybe they’ll see how well this sander sells, and if it does well, maybe we’ll see a brushless 6″ sander.
I’m of course curious why the new finish sander also doesn’t have a brushless motor, but that doesn’t automatically make it a bad tool.
If a brushless motor is important to you, look at competing brands’ offerings.
To me, it’s not usually a “make or break” feature.
Don’t lose sight of the big picture. I’ve seen reviewers do teardowns and complain about the size of wire gauge that’s used inside a tool. While the type of motor is a more significant part of a tool’s design, it’s still just a part of the story.
It’s okay to be critical about a tool’s design or engineering choices. And, it’s perfectly rationale to knock a tool for featuring a brushed motor instead of brushless.
Are we at the point where it’s fair to harshly judge tools nobody has even tried yet, solely based on the type of motor?
I’d say yes, but on a case by case basis.
For something like the new M18 sander, I believe that Milwaukee knows what they’re doing. I’m sure they have reasons outside of pricing considerations, and their 5″ random orbit sander has already made the case that cordless sanders don’t need to feature premium brushless motors.
We’ll have to revisit this in a few years, but as of mid-2022, brushed-motor tools are still relevant, at least in certain product categories.
Jim Felt
I’m curious. In the olden daze of corded drills I remember getting brushes and bearings replaced and even occasionally a factory cord. Milwaukee, Porter Cable, Sioux, Rockwell and others.
So here’s the question: do any modern brands have (service center) replaceable bearings?
fred
Servicing can be all about labor costs. In India we saw folks sitting by the side of the road repairing umbrellas. Some looked like the sort that you see discarded (after a strong wind gust) in urban trash bins here in the US. In India it may be economic to fix a $5 umbrella – but not here in the USA.
Like your example we had many corded tools repaired – often several times.
Many of our corded tools like routers and drills had brushes replaced.
More recently our experience was that the repair services that we trusted would advise against repairing many cordless tools – as being uneconomic. Some of these folks had no incentive to give us this advice – in fact they were losing a repair sale – and knew that we would likely buy a replacement tool from a separate source.
NZTom
In short: yes, most brands do have replaceable bearings in many tools, especially the brushed tools.
Most small brushless motors don’t have replaceable motor bearing though: usually the motor is part of a motor/ switch sub-assembly, which includes the battery terminals, controller, motor and all the conductors between them. Bearings in mechanically driven parts of a tool are usually replaceable: eg drum bearings in a cordless planer, or bottom concentric bearings in a cordless sander.
Benjamen
I would argue that in some ways a brushless motor is simpler (and maybe cheaper) than a brushed motor. A commutator and brushes are more complex that magnets and a series of windings — although for precise speed control you need to throw in some hall effect sensors. What is complex (and maybe expensive) about a brushless motor is the controller.
If you have a tool that is just a battery, switch and motor, yeah it’s easy to just throw in a brushed motor, but if you already have onboard electronics to talk to the battery and monitor the motor, throwing in a controller (and the power mosfets) isn’t as bad — yeah you do have to deal with heat though, but you have to deal with the heat from the motor anyway.
You don’t have to have feedback on a brushless motor, many RC motors don’t. I don’t know for sure, but I suspect maybe the Milwaukee brushless drills that aren’t Fuel might skip that to save money.
I suspect the brushed motor in this sander is a price issue, they want it to be completive with other similar sanders on the market.
I see a brushless motor being a huge plus for a sander. With a brushless motor you can monitor the speed of the motor and apply more current if it is slowing down to maintain the same RPMs. That way you always have the pad moving at the same rate no matter how hard you press down or what materials you are sanding.
MM
I agree with your thoughts on price. Theoretically a brushless motor (note I said motor, and not tool) should be cheaper than a brushed motor because it is simpler. No commutator or brushes in a brushless motor. The potential for extra cost comes from the supporting electronics in the tool.
As for the brushless motor being a huge plus for the sander, I disagree strongly. A sheet sander is not a high power demand tool. Pushing down harder on it doesn’t increase the load appreciably–at least not compared to other common power tools like a drill or a circ saw which absolutely do bog down. I don’t own this Milwaukee sander but I’d bet that if someone decides to test it it will not bog much even when overloaded despite having a brushed motor. I have used corded RO sanders for years, and I abused them hard, using them to sand steel fabrications before painting. I never noticed that they would bog down despite having relatively weak motors compared to most power tools and certainly not having any kind of brushless speed control technology. An oscillating sander just isn’t a high power demand application. Now if we were talking a *belt* sander or a grinder or something like that, then I’d totally agree.
Franck B.
My old router (corded) has a brushed motor, but has a speed control with feedback, so Benjamen’s argument of speed control isn’t necessarily particular to brushed/brushless. But it does add electronics to a brushed motor, thus increasing it’s relative complexity. I tend to think of a brushless motor as the whole including its controller, as it won’t function without a specific type of controller. But in a parts sense, I understand how it is treated separately.
I have a brushed Bosch rotary hammer with a somewhat complex speed control, and the speed control module fails regularly to the tune of $50 (first time) – $90 (recently) each. If I had thrown it out and upgraded to brushless the first time, I think I’d have paid less over the long run!
MM
Benjamin’s mention of speed control was a bit simplistic. There are two separate factors at work here.
First, a tool can vary the voltage going to a motor. That can be done with both brushless tools and brushed tools and there’s really no advantage either way.
Second, a brushless motor can have its timing varied on the fly by the microprocessor driving it. A brushed motor has fixed timing because it has a mechanical commutator that is locked in one position. THAT is the real advantage a brushless motor has over a brushed motor. Because a brushed motor has mechanically fixed timing it is optimized for one particular speed and it loses efficiency and power operating outside of that particular RPM. A brushless motor, whose timing is controllable by electronics, can run efficiently at a wide range of speeds.
That is why brushless motors are an advantage for some applications (those which require a wide range of speeds) but offer little advantage in others (those which just run at a constant speed).
TonyT
Cost advantage depends on motor construction – if you’re using high performance rare earth permanent magnetic DC motors, the magnet costs can be significant, especially when China is throwing a fit (e.g. about a decade ago, when they restricted export of rare earths, or today with all the Covid shutdowns in China – one of the motors we buy (assembled in USA with global components) currently has a 30 week lead time and 50% surcharge).
MM
That is certainly true, and that’s one of the factors I was getting at with a post lower down in this topic: there’s a lot more variables at work than just “brushed” vs “brushless”.
But if we are having a theoretical discussion on the merits of the two then we need to keep those kind of differences out of the equation. To truly compare “brushed” vs “brushless” we’d have to compare two motors with essentially identical magnets and windings, with the only difference being that one had a commutator and mechanical brushes while the other had no commutator and no brushes. And in that case the Brushless motor alone ought to be cheaper.
Franck B.
While the actual construction of the brushed motor may appear more complex in terms of parts count, you can argue that but the counterpoint would be in the actual design process. Given the package size, current draw, desired torque, cost target, and operating RPM range, it would be relatively simple to come up with the rotor size and material, magnet gauss, clearances, brush size, and winding wire gauge, and what you should use for a rheostat. As high school kids we’d do some of these calculations for slot cars. But the design of a controller for a brushless motor takes way more work. Sure, if your parameters are kind of loose you can repurpose a controller, but using the controller from an impact wrench won’t be ideal for a DA sander.
Lance
Milwaukee is pinching pennies, plain and simple. They make good tools, but that goal is secondary to making better profits.
BL motors are, today, such a small premium over brushed examples that there’s really no reason not to include them in ANY professional tool.
Milwaukee is going to find itself in a real pickle soon since their plain Milwaukee brand tools all have brushed motors, and their brushless tools are all Fuel branded. Either they dump the plain Milwaukee tools, or EVERYTHING becomes Fuel.
I bet they weren’t thinking 15 years ahead when launching the Fuel brand.
Stuart
I wouldn’t say it’s pinching pennies, since a brushless version would most certainly cost more.
It’s pinching pennies when you lower costs while keeping retail pricing the same.
Milwaukee has some brushless tools that aren’t Fuel-branded – drills, an impact, and a circular saw.
In some categories, there are good (brushed), better (brushless), and best (Fuel) tiers.
TonyT
Minor nitpick: all brushless motors require feedback, but that feedback can be sensorless (typically based on back EMF) – I suspect that virtually all power tools are sensorless because of cost and ruggedness (e.g. I’ve seen a significant number of failed hall sensors).
Collin
Brushed or brushless, with today’s power tools, it’s usually not the motor that fails.
As far as cost goes, I see that Flex has their brushless jobsite fan putting out 1100 CFM and 19mph for $119, while basically every other jobsite fan on the market is brushed, has less than half the CFM, less air speed, and costs about the same or more despite using cheaper brushed motors. I suspect it’s more of a profit margin issue in the M18 belt sander rather than a pure cost issue.
MM
One other point that I feel is worth making is that we often don’t know the whole picture here. A tool gets updated….the new model is brushless, and it performs better than the old tool. Do we attribute the improvement as being 100% the result of the switch to the brushless motor? Or could there be other factors at play? Perhaps that new motor in the new model is both brushless AND more powerful? Then what? How do we determine how much of the improvement came from the bigger motor as opposed to the switch to Brushless? We honestly can’t. But I bet most of us would attribute the word “brushless” on the side of the tool.
Franck B.
There’s way more to the whole picture than has even been considered in these threads.
“Brushless motor” is a marketing term that lumps together a whole bunch of different technologies, with differing design goals, and we’re not sure or even given any indication which types of motors are actually used. Well, some of them we can see inside and get an idea, but just because two tools are “brushess” doesn’t mean they use the same technology, as a vacuum needs (few speed variations, one direction) differ from a drill/driver (wide speed range, high torque, might be reversible in electronics… depending on the transmission design). There are reluctance motors or permanent magnet, dual rotor, single rotor, squirrel cage or wound, and I’m just listing technologies that can be combined in various permutations where all aren’t mutually exclusive–but some are, like reluctance vs. permanent magnet. The electronics of the controller is responsible for creating the right kind of electricity to be used by each kind of motor.
Some of each motor type’s strengths are things like cost, packaging/size, variable speed operation, torque, reversibility, efficiency, cogging, simplicity and reliability.
Brushed motors tend to be simpler in the electronics side, but aren’t as efficient at low speeds. They’ll need more energy and start at a higher speed, but then once running can move to a slower speed. The cogging torque can be an issue at lower speeds… having an engine with more running torque usually causes more cogging torque which effects efficiency and reliability at lower speeds. Brushless will require maintenance at some point, but if you are lucky, brushless electronics might outlast brushes.
So although marketing would like you to believe brushless is of huge importance, until the engineers produce a tool that’s brushed. But for some tools, the correct application of technologies is beneficial. When it’s the point of diminishing returns, cost and complexity become the deciding factors although complexity is often just reduced to a factor of cost.
Collin
BMW’s newest electric car uses brushes.
You are correct, brushed and brushless do not fully describe a motor.
Jared
I found MM’s rationale particularly compelling in that thread about the sheet sander. I basically share the same view that “brushless” CAN be an advantage, but there’s no reason to dismiss a tool just because it has a brushed motor. Sometimes you just need to try the tool to tell if it is good or not. It might be possible to make the same tool run and last longer with a brushless motor, but the devil is in the details.
In my opinion, the same thing applies to these “teardown” videos. It’s all well and good to point out when a tool has an obvious deficiency or to note when a new model has some lower quality bearings or smaller gauge wiring than a predecessor….
…but there’s a big caveat!
Sometimes the changes might look worse in a teardown but actually result in a good or even better tool because the manufacture figured out exactly what wire gauge is needed, how to make a tool with lower vibrations, where a structural piece was over-engineered and can be “thinned”, etc – and then the resulting design functions better despite apparently looking like things have been scaled back.
To draw a parallel, it would be like saying “I’d never buy a 16 gauge extension cord, 12 gauge is so much better”. Meanwhile, maybe you need a cord to power a trouble light and a lighter 16 gauge cord with a lighted plugs and cold-weather compatible rubber would actually be the best choice.
Tom
I just purchased the makita plastic deck mower (xml10, since I wanted the 5.0 batteries before that package gets the shrinkflation treatment to 4.0!), which has a brushed motor. For the few times a year I mow, along with my small lawn, the brushed motor should work just fine. I thought about it for a bit, and decided that for the way I might store the mower, a “dumber” design could be an advantage. I plan to store it in a non-climate controlled shed, so the lack of special electronics that go with a BL motor might be a good thing.
Tim
No and here’s why:
Brushless motors are largely unserviceable.
A lot of brushed tools are still relevant and a lot of companies still make high quality brushed tools. (Makita)
Budgets still exist. Look at how expensive even cordless bare tools are getting. (I do understand that we live in the Weimar Republic now)
TonyT
Brushless motors shouldn’t need servicing – no brushes to wear out. However, the bearings can go bad (seen it happen a few times on industrial servo motors, probably because the shaft was misaligned), the control electronics can fail, the motor can be overheated (destroying the windings), etc.
Daniel L.
The truth is that it’s perfectly possible to open many cordless power tools and put them back together, therefore it is possible to service them. You can typically even find service manuals for certain cordless power tools if you know where to look.
The primary problem as I see it is availability of replacement parts. Milwaukee keeps a tight lid on even basic stuff, like the rubber bumper on the fuel M12 impulse driver. You simply have to go to a service center to get one replaced…where I’d much rather just do it myself.
That said, milwaukee does seem to make parts for their older tools available for the layperson to purchase. It’s not so much a matter of tools being non-serviceable as it is, likely, a means of controlling who gets to repair the tools…as well as protecting IP.
It’s certainly frustrating, but it’s not like most of these tools are riveted and glued shut.
XRH07
Milwaukee does like to build the trigger switch right into the whole electronics assembly. Makes repairing 5-7+ year old Fuel tools completely uneconomical if the switch goes out.
You can easily find and get those parts, but there’s 0 sense in replacing an entire motor/switch/controller assembly when it costs as much as an entire tool.
Munklepunk
The issue is getting the parts or testing components. Since it has chips many people, I would say most, don’t have the capability to test all the components. Where on a brushed motor they are usually fairly easy to diagnose and components are generally less expensive. I have a bl circ saw that had been dropped from a scaffold. Everything I can test and fix I have, it’s broken somewhere in the wiring, and the chip connected to something, can’t remember what its called, are sealed and cannot be tested without breaking them. And as you also brought out, to just buy the parts, nope, not available, so it’s a parts saw now.
teicher
With battery powered tools, I always favor a brushless over a brushed simply because the brushless are more energy efficient. Over the past couple of years, I’ve tried to avoid buying a brushed motor tool if a brushless version is available. To me it’s just a penny pinching move by the tool company, especially when you are talking premium brands like Milwaukee and DeWalt. If Kobalt’s whole line up is brushless, surely the big guys can do it too.
Matt the Hoople
I base my desire on the tool’s intended use in my hands.
For example regarding cordless tools only… for drills, impact drivers and circular saws, I want the power and run time of brushless and will pay a bit more to get it. I my trim router, OMT, and palm sander see limited use. I don’t need long run times or big power so prefer the simplicity and lower price of a brushed tool. My jigsaw is brushless because it was on sale as a kit. Otherwise brushed would serve me fine. I have two recipes saws. For the conventional one which gets used for big cutting tasks, brushless. For the one handed one that is a quick grab whenever I only have one or two cuts, brushed would be fine but I have brushless because… sale. If I can get the brushless for the same price, why not but I certainly don’t need it for everything.
For RC cars… brushless all the way. With 3S lipo’s because I love twisting drive shafts and stripping transmissions.
Adam
I have cordless tools that are brushles, Milwaukee and Panasonic, I have corded tools that have brushed motors, makita miter saw 15 years and so on it said brushless motors last longer I don’t agree with that, to me cordless tools are designed to to last about maybe 7or 8 years corded tools last twice that.
AC
I have the Bosch 12v drivers in brushed and brushless. Much prefer the power delivery of the brushed. Don’t know if that has to too with gearing or something inherent to the motor, but there’s a big difference.
Davethetool
Nothing technical to add but I will comment that the Cordless Companies have caused the current attitude towards brushless by convincing us for the last few years how much more wonderful the brushless tools are as far as torque, energy efficiency and tool longevity compared to brushed tools. Once you’ve sold the consumers on something it’s tough to justify why one would be using “old technology to sell new items. All my Dewalt 20v are now brushless and as Handyman, I haven’t noticed the brushless huge difference in power or even efficiency. The big deal to me is how the newer tools are so much lighter, compact and ergonomic. My son as a homeowner has the brushless Ryobi compact drill and driver and strangely there is a fraction of a second once you press the power switch until the tool responds. I have never experienced that in my Dewalt brushless drill and driver but definitely notice on the Ryobi brushless.
Chris
I usually do look for brushless tools. But I guess it isn’t the most necessary feature. I don’t use the m18 line, although I was kinda bummed to see that it wasn’t brushless. Who doesn’t love more power, longer runtimes and longer lasting tools? I wouldn’t mind paying more for a brushless tool given the option. Brushless tools have come down dramatically in price over the years. Especially with holiday deals.
Going back to when I said brushless motors aren’t necessary for every tool, I still stand by that, although there are a few tools where I think it’s almost necessary. I think saws will always be in that top spot, no matter what kind of saw. Just because you always want that available power
Stacey Jones
Yes. For many reasons. Consumers want brushless. It’s more energy efficient. I think it may even be a bit smaller. Probably lasts longer too. Really, we have too much of a throw away society. We should figure out how to change that.
Scobey
There are instances where the brushless version of a tool is larger than the old fashioned brushed tool. Milwaukee 12v OMT and their 12v ratchets come to mind.
I prefer the brushed versions of those tools simply for the size aspect.
MM
The M12 Fuel Hackszall is larger than the older Brushed version as well.
Stuart
Brushed vs. Fuel brushless usually comes with upgraded performance specs.
The M12 Fuel Hackzall has a 5/8″ stroke length while the M12 Hackzall has a 1/2″ stroke length. The M12 Fuel is also said to have a “dual gear counter balance mechanism,” while the M12 has no mention of vibration reduction.
MM
Yes, of course. That’s a great example for this topic, really.
The Fuel hackzall has more cutting power than the basic model. Most people are likely to attribute that to the brushless motor alone, while in reality there were many changes made: brushless motor, larger motor, longer stroke, new mechanism with counterbalance added, and probably others that I’m not aware of.
“Brushless” steals the show and gets all the attention while in reality there was a massive supporting cast behind the changes.
Stuart
I wouldn’t say that brushless motors steal the show. In a tool like the M12 Fuel Hackzall, the brushless motor allows for greater power delivery that makes the longer stroke length possible. Other added features tie into the more premium “Fuel” experience, but the brushless motors are an integral part of it.
MM
@Stuart
The reason I said “brushless motors steal the show” is because I think that is the detail that most customers focus on–and it also seems to be the detail that the tool company’s marketers seem to want us to focus on, since that’s what they proudly print on the side of the box and often on the tool itself. You can see it clearly on your website–it’s quite often that you will review a tool and someone will quickly comment “why didn’t they make it brushless”? “Brushless” is what most people fixate on.
Taking the Hackzall example, Milwaukee chose to use a larger brushless motor in their upgraded model but they could have used a larger brushed motor just as easily. That also would have accommodated the longer stroke length and the counterbalance mechanism as well.
Jeremiah Ducate
Yeah i burned out/used up my old brushed hackzall and when i got the fuel one wasnt happy about its larger size and weight. The performance was great but i would have gotten the fuel 18 if i had realized before. I wanted the 12v to get in small spaces
Bruce
100% depends on the tool. Hammerdrill, sawzall, grinder, circular saw? Brushless is mandatory for me. These are high draw tools that will trash a battery fast. Brushless is a no brainer.
1/4 impact, stapler, caulk gun, nailer. Couldn’t care less. These low draw tools last forever on a small battery and they all have more than enough power for the application. My little ryobi 1/4 impact is so old, it’s blue and came with a ni-cad battery (long since dead) and it’ll still run all day on the 1.5ah li-ion battery and twist the head off a screw if I’m not careful. Why should I replace it with a new brushless model? If it dies, I’ll absolutely buy a 3 speed and that will probably automatically come brushless.
cafo
My brother and I both have random orbital sanders we use for work, he has the brushed M18 and I have the brushless dewalt XR. I can run a compact 3ah battery and seem to get about the same runtime as him using a 5ah. He’s been waiting for them to update the M18 to brushless and wasn’t too happy to see the sheet sander is also brushed.
Kingsley
Does all beer need to be craft beer? Yes! So, brushed 100%!
Roger
I am a little confused why tools that require “run-time” benefit, like vacs, don’t get issued with BL motors. Exempting recent vacs from Milwaukee that is. All other companied could have done this long ago, but have released brushed models.
MM
Brushless motors are not automatically more efficient than a brushed motor. In some situations they can be, but it’s not always true that brushless is more efficient or has longer run time. Brushless motors excel for variable-speed applications. That is when they can offer increased efficiency. A vacuum runs at a constant speed all the time, thus there is little benefit from using a brushless motor for that application.
Joellikestools
I only have one M12 tool that is brushless and I have been happy with all my brushed tools. I don’t think it necessarily has to be brushless. Although I find myself thinking that brushless is synonymous with tools that are not just bargain kit tools. I think more highly of the brushless ryobi drills, but they are also smaller and have better chucks than the entry models.
DW
A recent 6 1/2 inch 18V circular saw comparison at another popular tool site/YouTube channel included two Metabo saws; the brushed KS 18 LTX 57 and the brushless KS 18 LTX 66 BL. In the performance results the brushed 57 beat the brushless 66, and in fact it came in 2nd place overall in performance against all of the other brands (all brushless). Not only that, but the brushed Metabo was ranked the winner and best overall in class 6 1/2 inch cordless saw!
I’m not sure if links are allowed but the comparison is easily found via searching.
Franck B.
Most everyone here who wants brushless are often stating that the extra efficiency (runtime) that usually comes with brushless is their primary reason for wanting that.
The comparison to which you’re referring doesn’t even give a weight to the runtime of the various circular saws they tried. It has absolutely no bearing on their results, so it should come as no surprise that the winner would be either brushed or brushless.
I guess I’m stating the obvious that everyone’s criteria will be weighed differently. But you’re highlighting results that didn’t even take into account the features of what we’re discussing. 😀
(For me, cut depth is most important. I tried over half of the same saws they tried and settled for one that they didn’t even include in their comparison. My choice could match my Mag77 cut depth with a 6-1/2″ blade. Oh, and it is brushless!)
DW
I’m not sure what you mean by “But you’re highlighting results that didn’t even take into account the features of what we’re discussing”. What I mentioned is relevant to the discussion, especially because it was mentioned that circular saws should be brushless.
The Metabo brushed saw was also found to be the lightest of the lot, so this directly relates to Stuart’s other comment “On the other hand, brushless motors offer greater efficiency, which usually means more power for the size”.
I’m not a Metabo fanboy, It’s just an interesting result and I definitely wouldn’t have expected a brushed circular saw to be lighter AND more powerful than the best of what the other larger brands like Dewalt and Milwaukee have to offer in 2022.
Franck B.
I’m not sure if you read all the responses, but a lot of them mention brushless as being important specifically because of efficiency (which in most cases equates to run time).
By not testing or weighing run time, the results of such a test in regards to a brushed/brushless result should not be surprising at all. Also discussed earlier is that you usually cannot make direct comparisons of power and size based purely on a brushed/brushless variable, as other factors have probably been introduced.
And, some companies just don’t care to compete in some market segments. DeWalt’s 6-1/2″ circular saw seems like it isn’t anything other than a half-hearted attempt, although at least they put a cast base in place of the stamped one on the homeowner kits.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear before or now, or maybe I’m just not understanding what you’re getting at.
DW
Yes I noticed the runtime not being included. Tool reviewers don’t seem to be including runtime with results very often anymore. I can’t remember the last time I saw it included. I can understand it would be a lot of extra work with little benefit given batteries are getting such high capacity and chargers are getting faster. Or there could be other reasons.
The Metabo KS 18 LTX 66 BL mentioned has a 66mm cut depth, which could possibly be the deepest cut available for a cordless 6 1/2 inch. The Hikoki/Metabo HPT 6 1/2 inch also does 66mm and I think one of the new Makita’s does the same.
MM
I think that runtime for many tools would be a huge pain to measure. The operator has a huge effect on the load of most power tools so it would be difficult to remove that variabilty from the equation. It would not be very accurate to simply have the same person repeatedly use different tools until they went dead as there would be no way to know if each tool was tested under the exact same conditions. I.e. maybe the operator unconsciously pushed tool A harder than tool B. Maybe the operator got tired as the testing went on and tools tested later in the day weren’t pushed as hard as tools tested earlier in the day, etc. You can’t really use different people either–perhaps tester A had a bad habit of leaning the drill bit to one side while tester B had perfect technique. To really do it right some kind of testing machine needs to be built which operates each tool with the exact same, repeatable, test conditions.
Franck B.
I think a lot of commenters here are pretty bright, and if you thought about it you could test this pretty easily.
We’re really talking about efficiency, and not pure run time. Some reviewers will test “power” by using a circular saw attached to a track with a weight pulling it at constant force, and use that for comparisons. Of course, you’re going to still have a variable of the grain of the wood, but let’s say you do several cuts and take a median or average (I haven’t thought of which would be appropriate here, and a scheme to remove outliers). So with this jig and schedule, you just need to measure the wattage used by the saw during each cut with an ammeter. Apply your normalization calculations to get a result.
From there, one can create some sort of marketing-speak term for comparative results. DeWalt does something similar, of course without giving the parameters (“can cross-cut 68 2x4s with a DCB205 battery”). But the point is if the playing field is leveled, a comparison can be made.
I prefer reviews that give raw data and let a reader make a choice instead of using (seemingly) arbitrary weightings for a few chosen tests. This is why I still will go test drive a vehicle before buying it, rather than relying on what I can see on the web site. I understand that this method of choosing purchases is on its way out, though.
MM
The methodology you describe would work great, though few reviewers bother to do all that. I didn’t mean to imply that it was a difficult technical challenge, just that it was too much work for the average tool reviewer on Youtube.
Fyrfytr998
Brushless should be the new standard the same as auto transmissions replaced manual. Come at me bro. I ain’t scared.
Sam Thorn
Just to be clear there are plenty of non-Fuel Milwaukee products that are brushless. Fuel just means that they are the top-tier product at this point kind of like the Dewalt XR which also has lower tier models that are still brushless (atomic and the like). I would venture that a sander would probably have brushless motor due to the need for a long run time to compete against a corded sander. Here’s a M18 brushless combo with a drill and impact that are not Fuel:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-M18-18-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Brushless-Cordless-Compact-Drill-Impact-Combo-Kit-2-Tool-W-2-2-0Ah-Batteries-Charger-Bag-2892-22CT/305491315
Jeramy
I like the power efficiency of a brushless cordless tool but my experience is brushed tools (for me) last longer. My Snap-On 1/2″ 18v impact (brushed) is still running strong after more than half a decade. I have a variety of DeWalt and Ryobi cordless tools brushed and brushless… it’s the brushless tools I’ve had to send in on warranty far more than the brushed.
In the last five years I’ve sent at LEAST one brushless tool in a year for warranty repair, as opposed to only having one brushed tool needing warranty work EVER.
Bob Adkins
I don’t see how brushless could cost more to manufacture than brushed*, so that makes brushless more profitable. As long as people pay a premium for brushless, there will be brushed and brushless options.
*In the early years of brushless, I guess they were a lot more expensive to manufacture than brushed until the wizards learned to make them for a fraction of the cost.
MM
A brushless motor alone should be cheaper than a brushed motor to manufacture. However, the brushless motor requires more complex electronics to control it. The cost is not in the motor, it’s in the chips and the transistors that make it run.
Tim
I find that generally a brushless motor is better for cordless tools, but for a drill if I only take one drill, I actually prefer to have a brushed drill. With a brushed drill you can control the amount of torque the drill puts out. Which can be useful if not required for small drill bits, or power feeding taps ect… So my opinion is it really depends on the application whether brushed or brushless is better.
Oleg K
Ten or fifteen years ago brushless tools did cost more, mainly because the compiles electronic circuits were expensive to manufacture but nowadays, considering the cost of the raw materials and the maturity of the technology, logically and practically, brushless tools should be CHEAPER than their brushed cousins, simply because they are manufactured on a larger scale, use less rawaterials and are easier to repair, refurbish, repurpose and recycle.
The main reason the brushless tools cost more is because we got used to the fact rhat “brushless” means “more expensive”, we also memorized that it’s “new”, even though the technology is now decades old. “rate earth magnets” are just strong magnets that aren’t much more expensive, as a matter of fact, carbon brushes are much more robust than the circuit boards that control brushless motors nowadays so the longevity shouldn’t be the deciding factor. Besides, how many times do you actually replace the brushes, if ever? By the time they need replacement other major components usually do too and the cost of replacing them is usually higher than buying a new tool altogether.
Were just being taken advantage of by the manufacturers who add Bluetooth and other crap to non-specoalty tools, that’s why they cost more.